Tuesday, February 23, 2010

The PUA Scam

In this post I'm going to summarize the major problems with the PUA (Pick Up Artist) industry and how it scams men out of their money. The false teachings and predatory practices of the industry will be exposed here in full.

Contradictory Messages

The seduction community has two major flaws: The first flaw is that it teaches you the very contradictory message that you have to learn to be masculine and be your own man while catering to women and their actions. So no matter what she does, it's up to you to calibrate it for best effect. If she wants cocky and funny you better be cocky and funny. If she wants an asshole you better be that too. If she wants entertainment and you aren't entertaining then she will move on to the next guy who is.

Ironically, PUAs say that they take women off their pedestal, which in a manner of speaking is true. But in reality all they do is take women off one pedestal (created by mainstream society) and put them on to another one.

This is the pedestal created by mainstream society:

• Women are delicate flowers.
• To get women you have to give them compliments, buy them dinner, be a nice guy, and tell them how much you want to be with them.
• You have to pursue women and win them over.
• You have to impress women with lots of money, nice car, etc.

This is the pedestal created by PUAs:

• You have to game women, figure out what they really want, and then give it to them. Yes, it's a lot of work but who cares, since that's the man's job. And besides, women are not supposed to pursue, since men are the ones with the "balls".
• Women evolved powerful screening mechanisms to discern worthy guys from unworthy, and women are very good at filtering out men that don't measure up.
• Women shit test men and you have to learn to pass their tests or you're out.
• Nice guy behaviour is a turn off, so you need to learn to be alpha using cocky/funny, various seduction methods, dominant body language, etc.
• There are numerous attraction switches that women need to have switched on before they will want to be with you.
• You always have to be on the alert because women are always testing you to see what kind of man you are.
• Only a select few men can become very good with women (most men are betas, or AFC). Getting attractive women is an elite achievement.
• Women naturally throw obstacles in the way of sex. It is the man's job to figure out how to overcome them.
• Women will always cheat with the most alpha guy. Unless you are alpha women won't respect you. In other words, a woman is only justified in respecting you if she is attracted to you.
• Be wary of giving women compliments, buying dinner, or being "nice" because she can interpret that as weakness on your part.

As you can see, PUAs are merely a more sophisticated type of woman pleaser; bolstered by a unique mix of fatalistic, evolutionary psychobabble, where women are concerned. It's a more advanced form of ass kissing, but behind the scenes instead of out in the open.

The second flaw is that the seduction community never or rarely addresses those things that women are doing wrong. It's like a child who throws a tantrum and instead of disciplining him or her you take the position that you have to find out what it is they want and give it to them. There's this intense fear that if you call out women on their misbehaviour you are a chump or weak or unable to take it like a man. So rather than do that many guys prefer to just take the "spoil the child" approach to getting laid. Game is basically a coping strategy for women's rotten behaviour. If a woman has attitude and is unresponsive god forbid you tell her to open up. It's your job to figure out what buttons to push.

The fact is that PUA gurus almost never talk about the dysfunctional dating culture (in North America and some other westernized countries). To do that would admit a weakness that can't be marketed in the form of a product. In other words, you can't make money off that.


Pushing The Fear Buttons and Twisting Evolution Theory

Let's look at Mystery for instance. He's always teaching coping techniques on how to deal with any and all adverse dating situations. His classic line: "Men must learn to attract women or their genes will be mercilessly weeded out of existence". Great line BTW, plays on fear. And once the fear is primed a solution is offered. Very cult like. The only problem with this classic line is that it's relatively easy to eventually propagate your genes with someone, even in a dysfunctional dating culture, as long as you go out enough and talk to enough women. Furthermore, the whole notion of "HB10" and "beautiful woman" is biased because in Mystery's and his followers view, only dolled up 18-25 year olds are classified as beautiful or "perfect 10s", and since the PUA techniques play on these women's insecurities (very common for girls in this age range) they are lauded as superior; i.e. they get the "best women". And if the techniques don't work, and they won't on older more intelligent women, it is said that these women are not the best anyway. Yada yada and you can say that the techniques are engineered to get the highest quality women and they won't work on the lower value women (anyone over 25). It's PUA sleight of hand basically. The thing is, with evolutionary psychology arguments you can prove just about anything. Lots of makeup is called superior beauty and immaturity is called exceptional femininity. Therefore, the (dysfunctional) techniques work on the "most beautiful, most feminine women".

And then there's David DeAngelo, who does provide some good information, but also some very bad. He seems to underscore all his good advice with this one sentence: "Do this to get women". Learn hobbies, be funny and interesting dot-dot-dot because it helps you get women. You have to wonder how far along he really is in his personal development. But then again, he's making a ton of money so it's not as if he'll come out one day, admit he was wrong, and then close shop.

Like Mystery, one of his favorite techniques is to push emotional buttons to get guys to buy his products. He makes it seem like it's so crucial to get things "perfect" where women are concerned. And what about the women? Well, they just dash you with a finger if you get it wrong.

Speaking of priming the fear, here is a screen capture of an image ad that David DeAngelo put up in his online advertising campaign.



Pretty effective marketing I'd say, although a bit on the low side (even for him). It basically says that unless you learn how to become more attractive (from him), women will think you are a big Loser. God forbid that ever happens! I must do what David D says! Cha-ching!


Buying Into Feminist Propaganda And Double Standards

Currently, the PUA community sees women as superior beings, and men as generally deficient (since we're the ones who have to be taught what to do). This is very much in line with feminist propaganda.

The PUA community loves to say how inept the vast majority of men are when it comes to women. They say things like, 95% of men are totally clueless when it comes to women, which is a very suspicious number considering that meeting people is an intrinsic part of people's social psychology — in other words, we are wired to want to socialize and be around people. So it's simplistic to say that so many guys are completely clueless when it comes to meeting women. It legitimizes the very real difficulty men are up against in western culture, and introduces artificial solutions to solve it. The PUA is an artificial solution to a problem that runs much deeper than just a basic lack of "seduction skills" as the gurus claim.

But no, don't criticize women and don't criticize the social engineering that molds their behaviour. You can criticize GM and Chrysler for making shitty vehicles, and no one would say the problem is with you. But if you criticize women for their actions then the problem MUST be with you. And what does the PUA industry do, it capitalizes on this artificially induced feeling of incompetence men have where women are concerned.

Here's some double standards that are common in the PUA community:

It's okay for women to be unapproachable (because that makes them selective), but if men are unapproachable (or don't approach) they are labeled as shy or socially inept. If a woman has a wall around her then it's your job as a man to "break through". You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, after all. Great line, except that it takes two to tango, and if the woman isn't doing her part it's like dragging around a corpse.

It's funny how so many women say that guys don't approach them because they're intimidated by a strong, intelligent, confident woman (more feminist propaganda). As if I can know that about a woman just by looking at her from a distance. The truth is that the only thing men can know about a woman from looking at her is, is her body language inviting? In other words, is she approachable?

PUAs are perfectly okay with men taking responsibility for women's shortcomings, but the reverse is completely unheard of.

Another double standard is, when a woman shows interest in you right away you have to play hard to get and qualify her to show her that you have standards, otherwise she'll think you're too easy. But nowhere do PUAs raise an issue with her expressing interest in you right away. So it's okay for women to be interested right away but it's not okay for a man, because that would mean he is easy and has no standards.

Women in western (feminized) culture are elevated to a level that is totally undeserved, and in part this is because their shortcomings are too often spun as a sign of strength. It's a serious form of deception, one which the PUA community takes to a whole new level with their pseudo-scientific evolutionary psychology psychobabble which SO MANY men fall for. Let's look at some of these false arguments.

It is often said that women are more socially savvy and much better than men at reading social situations. But the reason it might appear this way is because in this culture women (as a whole) take virtually no risks and always play on the safe side. They are so hell-bent on getting society's approval that they go to all these extra lengths to make sure that they don't do anything "wrong". So as a result, we never or rarely see women make a fool of themselves. Of course not; they don't do anything! Men do all the work, take all the risks, get rejected, and then (many of us) go back to the drawing board to "up our game". And the PUA is merely an extreme case of this.

Men in the seduction community frame women's whimsical, immature, standoffish, selfish, weak, and stupid behavior as indicators of higher awareness, virtue, and social intelligence. For example,

• A woman can't initiate and lacks conversational depth — The PUA interpretation: She is testing your ability to "plow through" and lead.

• A woman is prejudiced and rejects you based on some stereotype she is carrying in her mind — The PUA interpretation: She is picking up on some vibe that you are inadequate or weak. Women are masters at picking up on subtle cues, after all. In other words, you need to up your game.

• A woman can't take responsibility for her actions and flakes on you — The PUA interpretation: You didn't do enough to attract her.

• A woman is with friends who regularly cockblock — The PUA interpretation: You have to win the friends over (never mind what she thinks). So learn group theory.

• A woman loses interest soon after talking to you — The PUA interpretation: You didn't stimulate her enough.

• A woman resists you — The PUA interpretation: She is testing you to see if you are man enough and skillful enough to break through her defenses.

• A woman acts unpredictable, whimsical, and immature — The PUA interpretation: Women are more "complicated" than men and there are numerous attraction switches you must turn on in order for them to want to be with you.

• A woman needs her friends' approval — The PUA interpretation: You must get her friends' approval.

Looking at these it's pretty obvious what's going on. Women's rotten behaviour is justified using some form of twisted evolutionary psychology argument, or deftly reframing the situation to always put the burden on the guy to get things done.

Now imagine if a child did some of these things. What would the interpretation be?

• A child can't initiate and lacks conversational depth — Society's interpretation: He/she isn't mature enough.

• A child is prejudiced and rejects you based on some stereotype he/she is carrying in his/her mind — Society's interpretation: The child must be taught not to judge people based on appearances, and learn not to stereotype.

• A child can't take responsibility for his/her actions and flakes on you — Society's interpretation: The child must be held accountable in order to learn to be responsible and respectful of others.

• A child loses interest soon after talking to you — Society's interpretation: He/she has a short attention span (not a good thing).

• A child acts unpredictable, whimsical, and immature — Society's interpretation: This behaviour is wrong and the child needs to learn to be more disciplined in life and be more respectful of other people's time.

• A child needs his/her friends' approval — Society's interpretation: He or she has low self-esteem and hasn't matured enough to think for him or herself.

It seems that less is expected from women than from children. That alone speaks volumes.


No Pain No Gain

In the PUA ideology, the process is supposed to be difficult. That's just the way it is. Anything else is just you getting lucky or "fools mate". Furthermore, you have to approach at least hundreds, or even thousands of women before you start to get "good". In other words, you have to do tons of approaches before a PUA method will work for you (since it is a skill just like any other). However, it is not quite a skill the way welding or gymnastics is a skill. You see, in these skills you are dealing with something neutral (such as gravity), which doesn't care either way whether you succeed or fail. But in interactions with women you are dealing with someone who can consciously work with you or against you. So knowing that it's a matter of free will, why would you choose to work with someone who freely chooses to make things hard for you? A shy virgin can get laid with a woman who really likes him, but even an experienced ladies man will encounter difficulty with certain types of women. So why focus on something that's difficult when there are clearly easier options out there.

The bar in the seduction community is low. Many guys will pay PUA instructors tons of money, for basically just some motivational speeches, and learning how to go out and talk to women. And these guys will feel it was money well spent. I read many glowing reviews on various boot camps, seminars, and books but very few of the reviewers even suggest that they got real results. Most of the reviews seem to be of the epiphany-seeking mental masturbation type, which confuses delivery with content. This is a very common mindset among the self-help crowd, where they just want to be offered a solution that "feels good", even though it might fall way short in giving actual results.

What's missing in virtually all the PUA methods is proof that they work on a consistent and reproducible basis. So you see, it's not a skill, like welding or gymnastics, because these skills are consistent and reproducible. A trained welder, or gymnast can reproduce their skills perfectly (or almost perfectly) every time. But for PUA methods, you must repeat your efforts over and over to be successful (even the veterans). For example, let's say a guy goes out and does tons of approaches after reading about some PUA's method. Result: He eventually gets laid. He then lauds the method as the greatest thing since sliced bread. But really, the reason he got laid was BECAUSE he did tons of approaches. Pretty much anything will work if you do it enough. It's called statistics. It is for this reason that PUA methods are not a skill like any other, but rather the law of averages masquerading as a skill.

A common way the PUA industry deflects criticism is by saying you didn't approach enough. But it's like someone selling you the winning lottery numbers, and then telling you that you have to play them many, many times to be guaranteed success.

You are not really doing anything powerful by practicing PUA methods, other than just building up a pain-tolerance for doing lots of approaches; with perhaps some skew towards certain types of women which are most compatible with your style and personality.


Sex As An Elite Achievement

PUAs make sex seem like an elite achievement, and unless you are properly trained you will go without it. You will notice that when guys on PUA forums post lay reports (especially gurus selling something) they tend to break down the lay report in an effort to explain how a certain application of seduction principles produced the desired result. But if you look closely at the lay reports you will usually notice that, from the point of view of an observer, they are basically just normal interactions perhaps peppered with some PUA material which really makes no difference in the overall outcome, and certainly no difference beyond just normal talking and basic flirting. If you read enough lay reports you will notice this pattern. So it is a complete fallacy that anything that results in sex must be a result of some PUA principle, or a combination of different PUA principles.

And if it is not immediately clear how PUA principles could have worked for someone who got laid it is said that this person either got lucky (fool's mate) or he has "internalized" the principles. So if I have sex with an attractive woman, and I am unable to break the interaction down into "tangible steps" related to the pick up arts then it must be that either I got lucky (meaning there was no skill involved) OR I internalized the PUA principles and that's why I can't explain them. But imagine the possibility that the interaction cannot be broken down in terms of PUA principles because no PUA principles were actually used. It's simply a normal interaction between a man and woman that resulted in sex, hardly a great feat. Now, it's certainly true in western culture that there are a great many entitlement princesses, which greatly affects men's overall success with women. But the problem here is not a lack of seduction skills (which men have somehow devolved into, according to PUAs). It's a cultural shift for the most part, which has created the difficulty men experience. PUA theory takes the extreme position that men are usually to blame for lack of success with women. This of course complements the (radical) feminist view that men are inadequate. So PUAs are basically sympathizers with the feminist view that men are intrinsically lacking. And one side effect of this is that it translates into a somewhat hostile view that PUAs have towards "normal" guys, referring to them as "AFC" (Average Frustrated Chump).

Putting an end to radical feminism and holding women accountable for their actions will do much more to boost men's success with women than even the best PUA methods can.

Some might say that what I'm saying is not really true and that it is a man's job to initiate and lead. But that is a form of chivalry, which has no place in an egalitarian society. PUAs expect that men must take up the slack for women when it comes to dating, while ignoring the fact that women themselves, in many walks of life, show a capacity to take charge and be decisive. So from this you can conclude that taking initiative and going after what you want is a conscious choice. Ask yourself, how come women need to be pandered to when it comes to sex and dating, but for other things like holding down a job and taking on responsibility, they are fully capable.

The PUA does not hold women accountable, and instead pushes the black and white view that success with women is ALL up to you (the man). The truth is that it's up to both men and women, but since you can only sell self-improvement as a marketing angle where everything and anything is within your control, criticism of women won't enter the picture. Or if it does, it will only be as a last resort, or as a seduction tool in itself to get her to f*ck you (since, after all, women get turned on by men who put their foot down). In the seduction community, even putting a woman in her place is used as a tool to bed her (e.g. negging). It's all massive supplication, with whitewashing to make it seem like PUAs don't kiss up to women. So in other words, be a man and put women in their place, but only in such a way that it gets them more into you. This attitude is very pervasive in the seduction community.

Some would say that what I'm saying is unfair, and that there is good PUA material out there. That's true there is, but it's only a small percentage. Think of it this way, if a movie is 95% crap you're not going to give it a good review are you? It would get two thumbs down. So why laud about how great the pick up arts is when only 5% of the material is any good. Why is the bar so low for this stuff? The argument is always that you must sift through it and take what you need. But that's a 95% waste of time. If a book has only 5% quality content would you buy it? No way. The amount of unlearning you would have to do would greatly exceed the amount of learning.

One of the only good things about the pick up arts is in the various forums, where you read about other men's experiences with women. But the underlying PUA ideology that drives the points of view are generally deeply flawed, at least to some degree, so you have to be careful. You really have to be skilled at separating out the dogma in order to extract any value from these forums. But if you're new to dating then you won't know the difference between good and bad, and will most likely be taken in at some point by some scammers charging ridiculous amounts of money for how to get laid using a bunch of steps you don't need.


Supporting The "Successful" Lifestyle of Certain PUA Gurus

There are a number of so-called PUA gurus who have "cracked" the dating scene. These gurus have one thing in common. They have made a lifestyle out of meeting and picking up women. This is made possible (i.e. financed) by guys taking their seminars & boot camps.

Here's the angle:

"I will teach you how to be successful with women, for a hefty price. That will make me enough money so that I can devote myself, and travel to different places (for seminars and bootcamps), and meet lots of women. And thanks to you I will have the time and energy to do so (since I won't need a job). And due to the law of averages and the advantages of exposure, this will result in me actually being successful with women. This will justify me teaching guys how to meet women, and charging for it."

It's like a positive feedback. These guys make a living out of picking up women. This will statistically guarantee their success, which reinforces the perception that they are "good" and have a "method" that works. This keeps the demand high for their seminars & boot camps, which keeps the money flowing (thereby supporting their lifestyle), and the cycle continues.

So in large part, students of these seminars and boot camps are financing the pick-up lifestyle of the gurus, which is precisely what allows them to be as successful as they are (if they are successful at all).

But in reality, there are no superior methods and there are no actual gurus. At best there is only the law of averages and lots of exposure wrapped up to look like a viable strategy.

Ask yourself, what reasonable man would want to spend so much time and energy meeting women, unless he could somehow make money off it.

I'm reminded of a pyramid scheme I heard explained once by David DeAngelo (if you can believe it). He was talking about how, as a younger man he wanted to make a lot of money, and he said that one way to do that was to put an ad in a newspaper saying that, if you wanted to make a lot of money, send one dollar to the address in the ad, and you will be sent information on how to do it. So you send in a dollar, and then you are sent the information, which tells you to put the same type of ad in a newspaper, telling people to send you a dollar to receive information on how to make lots of money. Neat, huh!

Here's another example. Create a website telling people how to generate a lot of internet traffic. Put in some filler to make the site seem somewhat credible, and watch the traffic grow. But in reality, the way the website is actually growing is by milking the interest of many people who are looking up ways to generate lots of internet traffic.

So, do you want to be successful with women and have a life where women are in abundance? One way to do this is by teaching guys how to go about it, and charge a lot of money for it. Throw in some decent information to raise the credibility of your services, and the income will allow you to sustain the traveling and life you want where you can naturally meet lots of women. This will "prove" you know your stuff, and the wheel will keep turning. It's a self-perpetuating business model. It's quite brilliant. Too bad you have to be a sociopath to do it.

Related Posts:

The Shit Test Fallacy
Most Damaging PUA Concepts
What If PUA Methods Were Taught To Women Instead Of Men?
PUA Methods Create Little Attraction If At All




Make sure you read the comments below. I address many of the common criticisms that some people have of this article. For example, some guys think that I believe women should change the way they naturally are so that guys can be lazy and still get laid. That's not true, and I talk about that.

108 comments:

Alex Kay said...

Very interesting post. I think you're a little harsh since there's absolutely a ton of great information out there... But your point shines through. Good one :-)

Anonymous said...

I must say this article seems more like a personal vendetta then anything else.

There are a ton of reviews and data on personal results. For me for example talking to new people is very hard.

PUA made it possible for me to talk to new people and open those sets almost a 100% of the time.

I did have to try and open a lots of sets to get calibrated (I started with opening about 30%, which was higher than i expected). Something you say is basicly the scam "It's a numbers game".

For me PUA made it possible for me to meet new people and have fun interactions with them and although i didn't pay for any of it (download heaven), i think its most definatly an interesting science.

John said...

Oh sure, the information is interesting alright, but it fails to live up to the hype and in fact ends up doing more damage to men than women due to the burden of expectation.

The only time I've ever said anything good about PUA is that it helps get you out of your shell if you are at a point where its very hard for you to socialize. You help confirm that positive. It's all the other stuff that isn't a positive which I talk in depth about.

BTW, calling this article a "vendetta" is hardly a criticism of its validity.

Anonymous said...

Good job putting your own spin on this, but I can see you got these ideas from manhood101.com.

John said...

I haven't even read manhood101, except one time briefly. What I'm writing is just common sense. More than one person can arrive at that.

Anonymous said...

Ok my bad I didn’t mean to criticize you. Even if you did get your ideas from manhood101.com you go into much more depth about the specific problems of the pua community in this article. The child analogy that you used really makes it crystal clear that bad behavior in women is being accepted as the norm nowadays (especially in the pua community). However, I wouldn’t really say this is entirely common sense. I personally have been deceived by feminism my whole life and I needed someone to point this stuff out to me. Good for you that you’ve been able to arrive at this stuff on your own. I wish more people would realize this.

John said...

It took me a while to realize this stuff. And there were lots of mistakes along the way, but if you believe the wrong thing long enough, sooner or later there has to be an "ah-ha" moment. And that's when you start rejecting all the ideology and start figuring things out on your own. Feminism (a lot of it) and the pick-up arts are ideologies.

Anonymous said...

Ive seen many of these PUA "gurus" and most of them are not getting laid and the girls they do hook up with on occasion are ugly

Anonymous said...

PUA, like all opinions, has its good points and bad points. It's your job to incorporate the information you receive and turn it into something productive. Words are words and actions are actions. They are not interchangeable. Practice and experience are necessary to achieve results. PUA articles are only part of a solution of happiness (in women). Readers must take what is most useful to them and move on. The fact that PUA articles prey on men insecurities is nothing new. Many scams and businesses prey on personal problems and failings. Question what you read and how it is relevant in your stage of life.

Anonymous said...

what you are actually doing is systematically building confidence and improving your chances.
and that really works. i have done about 500 approaches and not had one single success. then one day i did a couple of things right the way PUA teaches and i was kissing the girl at the bar and everybody was watching and i was feeling great. i opened a couple of sets for my friend and left with the girl

John said...

^^^ Your success story is kind of vague. But anyway, the vast majority of people using PUA methods don't get them to work the vast majority of the time. You just have to look at the field reports posted on PUA forums to see how high the failure rate is.

Anonymous said...

A lot of guys dream of picking up hot women; some really do want a long-term relationship with a woman that's compatible with them (hot or not). How will they ever be able to do that without having an idea of what to do or where to start (especially for introverts). Learning PUA principles is one way to do so. It won't necessarily get you a girlfriend but at least it can set you up to be able to find one. PUA is not relationship magic, it only gets your foot in the door. It's a means to help you socialize or socialize better is all. Whether or not you believe in its principles or guidelines it can hardly be called a scam since it does produce the results it was meant to; mainly, a personal change to the students social behavior. Style the "Best PUA In The World" gave it up when he wanted a relationship with Lisa. Would he have even met her if it wasn't for the PUA Project Hollywood? In other words, may a person be Christian or Muslim, they are neither both nor wrong. :-D

John said...

The seduction community I think started for the right reasons, to provide some guidance for men who found themselves adrift and confused in the dating world. So there was a need for sure, but like all needs in a free market economy there is potential for exploitation, and that is precisely what happened with the seduction community. And now it is a minefield of bad advice and psychologically damaging information, largely spun by gurus out to make money. Just because it is basically the only non PC dating advice readily accessible to men in large volume does not mean it is good advice. But like I said, one of the few good things about it is that you get to hear about other men's experiences through the forums and use that to help correct some of the more obvious errors. The biggest advantage anyone ever gets from the pick up arts is that it gets you to approach and become more confident and sexual. But in doing so you risk taking on an awful lot of bad beliefs which can even reverse some of the positive progress that is made.

Anonymous said...

Great article. Right to the point. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Great article!

I agree that PUA has a lot of bad advice, while few good points.

Personally I started with it after reading "The Game" (a great work of fiction) While it did give me a kick up the ass when I needed to get out there, I now realise I never needed the materials of the community to attract women, just to improve and look after myself.

The message is quite simple.

1. Be confident in yourself.
2. Work on your style and appearance.
3. Work on your self confidence.
4. Keep yourself fit.
5. Talk to people a lot.
6. Build an interesting life for yourself.

That is all you need to do!

Guys you are attractive to women, sure not EVERY woman will dig you but there will be plenty that do!

Just keep your eyes open for the signs.

genuine said...

John, I'm impressed with you, truly impressed with your analytical skills and how you managed to filter all this information and to see what's behind the scenes. It takes some brain for this! To see what's really happening and how they play with untrained brains, untrained male brain :) It's just a virus scheme that uses you, it directly hits your insecurity by offering you everything. It's not the scheme that's so brilliant, you are brilliant, thank you one more time for the effort to write this! :) I was just trying to figure out what's going on and had some opinion about it, just trying to realize what they're actually doing and how, you showed me, you helped me and I saved time :) Thank you and have a great life!

Matt T said...

I think there was one guru named Paul Janka who was actually truthful about his success rate, claiming that only about 10-12% of his numbers ended in sex.

But other than that, most PUAs are disgusting, selling a false reality that they are traveling the world seducing hundreds of 9s and 10s, and for the nominal fee of a bootcamp they can teach you to do the same. In reality, you probably will never match their theoretical level of success.

Honestly, pickup is very useful to many people, and if you focus on learning "inner game" (the attitudes and internal beliefs you hold regarding people, women, life, and yourself) then you can achieve more success than you did before.

I think you should check out the Paragon Project, which is far less profit-oriented than people like RSD, LoveSystems, etc. They are also more honest about the difficulties you face in the field, and they flat out tell you that many girls will reject you outright at clubs. Contrast this with Mystery: after reading the VAH I would have come away with the impression that rejection is something that occasionally happens.

John said...

In some ways Paul Janka's style is superior to all the regular PUA crap. At least he acknowledges that it's a numbers game. But he is also trying to sell his method nonetheless so some things he says are just over-complications in order to create the filler in order to create the illusion of substance. Because, if he just said to approach a lot of women and keep the interactions short before inviting them to your place to fuck, that wouldn't be enough content to sell something.

This sales copy was taken right from his Attraction Formula website, on the main page:

In this short video, you'll learn the common mistakes that hold most men back from having real success with women. You'll also learn a proven formula to easily meet women anywhere you go. These tips and tricks are being used by thousands of men all over the world. Make sure to watch the entire video, so you can learn these devastatingly-effective seduction secrets...

My approach allows you to meet women in under 2 minutes, without the use of online dating, so you can meet girls during your normal daily routine. It's designed to be quick, so that you can meet women anytime, anywhere you go...

I receive dozens of testimonials every single day. I have hundreds of them on file from guys who swear my insights have changed their life. (I've posted several of them on this site). My street worthy dating advice works for all kinds of guys, and it can work for you too!

I've approached over 10,000 women and have collected over 3,000 phone numbers. I know exactly what works when it comes to meeting women. I've thrown out everything that doesn't work—and I've narrowed my approach down to a few critical things you must do in order to get the girl. It's absolutely step-by-step and none of it is theoretical...

These secrets have worked for thousands of guys all over the world, and they can work for you, if you're willing to simply try them out. I'm not going to sit here and promise that you'll be dating a super-model overnight, but I can promise that if you just try a few of my tips and tricks, amazing things will happen. Watch the video above to learn how it's done!



In my mind, the fourth paragraph says all you need to know. He approached 10,000 women, and collected 3,000 phone numbers. In his book he says that 10% of the women he gets numbers from he ends up fucking. That means he's fucked around 300 women. Now, 300/10000 = 0.03. This means he fucks around 3% of the women he approaches. But in the rest of his sales copy he states that he has "secrets" and "critical things" that you must do to be as successful as him. Well, I can tell you that with a 3% success rate (give or take) it all comes down to the law of statistics, and there is no such thing as a magic formula. I suspect other guys like Mystery have about the same success ratio. But good luck getting them to admit that directly. For them it's all about making it seem like they have amazing skillz and charging lots of $$ for it!

But I will give Janka a thumbs up for being honest about his actual numbers. However, I think he's peddling the PUA angle too much (which no doubt is making him more money than he would otherwise).

Anonymous said...

PUA has some good things to learn but a lot of things that are incredible to belive like they say that looks does not matter so if you are fat short old etc etc,with women it is not important and that with a good game you will get theme and that women go more by emotions and not by looks like men do,if its true then why women go for taller men than her and not for a shorter than her?,well let me tell you all this, i was a fat person and i did not get women at all,i am short men 5'3" i was 170 pounds i lost 50 pounds in one year i am now 120 pounds and booom my features change i have a more refine face,my neck it looks better i went from 5 to a 9everything change with me,women smile more to me women are friendler with me and i have more eye contact with theme and let me tell you i enjoy this situation and women enjoy more my company so we both have fun and and it is not a competition of men vs women as PUA try to teach,of course i dress better, it is important to be well groom,so yea LOOKS IT IS IMPORTANT WITH WOMEN,PUA say that age does not matter with women but of course it matters,it does not matters if you are a hot and good looking men or if you have a lots MONEY,and the gurus have money and thats why they have all this women,because of all the people that buy there programs including my self i have spend a lot of money in those programs and let me tell you that there was a moment that i was thinking that some of them were using several different names so they could sell the same program but with different authors so you will be buying the same thing but under different name so they can have more income,i even bought this DVD from England where they teach you how to unzip the woman pants,a woman that you are just meeting few seconds ago in a disco, thats not possible in the real world the first thing is that for sure they will send the bouncer and throw you out of the disco, a person with the name of Alanis from Austin Texas recomende it this program and this another one seems to be that all of theme know each other coincidense?

Anonymous said...

Dude, thanks for posting this. Pua is bullshit

Anonymous said...

Thanks again for writing this. Seriously I was reading the Mystery method and I kind of only halfway knew it was a scam and your article confirmed that it is. I just really wanted some help getting someone to pay attention to me and advise and that's why I bought it. And that book corrupts the mind without a doubt and will take time to unlearn the garbage that it preaches. I'm going to put it on my grill and burn it. I'm not kidding.

Anonymous said...

I took my mystery method book and burned it unregognizable. It was awesome

Pablo said...

Wish I'd read this post earlier. I just paid $3000 for a PUA course. On the other hand, it will give me more confidence to approach women randomly on the street, and I think I need the peer pressure of having a dating coach standing there encouraging me to do it.

Pablo said...

I have a question - how do you explain the FACT that some guys I know are very successful with women, and move from one relationship to another? Is it just because they go out and socialize more (the law of averages)? Or do they have some sort of "natural game"? If so, isn't it therefore possible to BREAK DOWN their technique for us áverage chumps?

I don't think you can deny there are certain males who are more successful with women than others. You haven't explained why this is the case (apart from general references to introvertedness). You should account for this if you are arguing that PUA is nonsense.

John said...

The reason these guys are successful is because they go out and socialize more (the law of averages). Any natural ability they have will not help if they didn't play the numbers game. There's also the fact that some guys know more people through school, work, or friends, and by way of their social network meet more girls.

The problem with PUA-thinking is that it tries to pass off a lot of very normal aspects of male-female interactions as requiring some great level of skill, but in reality it's basically just the same thing as being able to socialize at a party with people you never met before. But you don't see them trying to sell products teaching guys how to better socialize at parties, because there's no demand for that. But the skillset is mostly the same.

PUA over-charges for information that is over-hyped, and over-promises results. It is an extension of the self-help scam, in general. Although there is some good in there it basically makes you helpless by giving you a false lens by which to view the world; usually by way of over-complicating the issues, which is the only way you can charge so much money for something which has mediocre value at best.

Back to your question, can you break down what a "natural" does? Only to an extent since someone is a so-called natural if he's comfortable in his own skin and with his personality type -- which is only transferable to someone else by teaching them to also be comfortable in their own skin. That and learning to flirt a bit, and picking up on subtle cues that a woman wants to get with you, will also help. But this is not rocket science at all. There are not supposed to be obstacles, and there are not supposed to be "shit tests". If a girl wants you and is willing to be proactive she will make it easy for you. PUA-thinking teaches you that somehow the reverse is true, because obstacles are normal and everything is a test, blah blah blah. And that is just one of the things that makes it garbage.

Anonymous said...

John,

I'm in love with this girl and she won't return my affection like she used to. She rarely returns my phone calls or goes out with me. She was never really my girlfriend. Now she always has all of these guys calling her and buying her things and I want to be with her all the time and I guess that makes me no different than them. I can't have feelings for any other girl than her and I think its making me sick. I'm sure that's how all of the other guys who are chasing her feel. I bought that mystery method book and thought it would help but it didn't. It just overcomplicated things for me psychologically. I throw up constantly now and I never did that before she was in my life. Sometimes I can't eat. Is that normal? I think the mystery method refers to my state as "the friend zone" I'm in quite a lot of pain emotionally though.'

John said...

It sounds like you need to separate yourself from her and the Mystery Method. Get some perspective, and move on to other stuff. Do that until you stop feeling so needy. Not much else I can say beyond that, as that's the critical first step.

Anonymous said...

I guess that response makes sense. It seems like love is another form of addiction when I put it in perspective because people seem to "need" it so badly.

Anonymous said...

I agree that the article is a personal vendetta and makes distorted points.

1. Men calling women out for how they behave is not going to change the behavior of the majority of women or their expectations.

A lot of the behavior of women, in terms of how they interact with men, is instinctual and biological. So that is not going to change anytime soon because beta males are complaining about it.

2. A lot of PUA are observations about HOW women ARE and the GAMES women play.

If a guy wants to improve his success with women, there is no getting around him understanding women better and what they do.

3. Many of the people complaining about PUA are LAZY GUYS that don't want to make any effort and don't want to study, OR WOMEN that don't want guys figuring them out.

4. Many of the people that call PUA a scam have NO ALTERNATE METHODS to help improve the dating success of men.

Their solution is often just grin and bear FAILURE.

And whenever they do come up with any methods, it somehow resembles things PUA do.

John said...

Let's address your points:

"1. Men calling women out for how they behave is not going to change the behavior of the majority of women or their expectations."

*** So you're just saying to accept certain crappy behavior from women because they're not going to change anyway. Sounds like "spoil the child" to me, or in marketing terms "the customer is always right". Both may work in the short term but are bad for the long term.

"A lot of the behavior of women, in terms of how they interact with men, is instinctual and biological. So that is not going to change anytime soon because beta males are complaining about it."

*** Basically you're saying that only a beta male would complain about a woman's behaviour. I'm sure a lot of guys would fall in line after hearing that, because god forbid they be called "beta", or "AFC" for that matter.

*** You are also playing the instinct and biology card, very common among PUA apologists. I think some behaviour is natural but the problem is when taken to an extreme. For example, it's natural for me to want sex but that doesn't mean it's okay for me to rape someone, because it's natural blah blah blah, or for that matter treat women badly because that's the "alpha" thing to do. The problem is you PUA guys just don't know what a happy balance is, you always deal with extremes, which is a kind of overcompensation for being "beta" or "AFC" most of your lives. And furthermore you excuse women's shitty behaviour when it happens because you want to distance yourself as much as possible from your past where you probably complained about women's behaviour a lot and didn't get results. In other words, you want to be proactive at all costs. But you do this while ignoring that there are problems in the dating world, especially in North America and other western-inspired countries, where many woman act like primadonnas. You call this behaviour natural, but common does not mean natural, or normal for that matter. All you need to realize this is be exposed to enough women that don't play games (the minority of them). Then you get some perspective. I have that perspective and I documented my many experiences on my crazydatingstories.blogspot.com if you care to read it. Or if you want testimonials from various different guys who have actually TRAVELED, go to happierabroad.com to see how women on other parts of the world compare.

"2. A lot of PUA are observations about HOW women ARE and the GAMES women play.

If a guy wants to improve his success with women, there is no getting around him understanding women better and what they do."

*** Nothing wrong with understanding women better and improving yourself in the process, but I draw the line at 1) pandering to some women's distorted and flaky world view, 2) meeting a woman more than halfway because she is too insecure or weak to do her part

"3. Many of the people complaining about PUA are LAZY GUYS that don't want to make any effort and don't want to study, OR WOMEN that don't want guys figuring them out."

*** That doesn't fit my description. Like I said, I documented my experiences and I have a lot of them. But some guys assume that because I've been in the "game" so long that I should have reached very different conclusions by now. Well, sorry to disappoint, but I am only reporting what my experiences have taught me to be true.

"4. Many of the people that call PUA a scam have NO ALTERNATE METHODS to help improve the dating success of men.

Their solution is often just grin and bear FAILURE.

And whenever they do come up with any methods, it somehow resembles things PUA do."

*** The solution is to make things easy for yourself and screen for women who make things easy for you. And if you talk to some guys, they will tell you to travel overseas to see what women are like there.

P said...

I agreed with most of what you said but I don't think the pickup community wholly promotes super supplication and not holding women accountable for their actions.

Actually, many authors heavily discourage what's become known as "approval seeking" and not becoming "outcome attached.". The better authors teach you to drill into your head day one that "every girl is replaceable."

Now, sure there are these totally out of touch morons that don't know what problem pickup is supposed to fix. I wrote a negative review of a bootcamp that I thought failed to impress and someone responded, "much to my chagrin I've had to accept that not every girl can be picked up.". People like that need to get a grip. If they thought that they could be, I've got a bridge for sale.

P said...

I thought that was the only feedback I had but I was reminded of something that hit a nerve with me.

The advisers I choose to surround myself with will commonly say, "dude, if all she's gonna do is lean there on the bar with her side turned to you and shut you down with one-word answers, just move on, she's not worth your time.

I've seen this play out numerous times. 9 times out of 10 it's a cliquey little bitch who's just used to strutting around town with her same 5 girlfriends. I've seen these girls scream a guy's name and hug a guy they know who walks by. In one instance there were these 2 pouty, scrunchy-faced girls sitting next to each other not saying anything, just staring forward; they were rudely shooting down anyone and everyone who just wanted to make conversation. A friend of mine who knew them advised:

Yeah, those two girls only date guys they went to high school with. They're waiting for two guys they know and they will sit like that all night until they get here.

Better PUA teaches to at least "understand" how some nice girls, who also happen to be attractive, get bombarded with approaches, many from douches, and need some ways to politely let the ones they don't find appealing know they aren't interested.

I certainly would! Much like how I was approached by a fat girl for my number the other night. I politely told her, "I'll just seeya here!" and smiled.

Nowhere have I seen any pickup methodology explain what happened w/ girls like those two at the bar by saying, "you didn't run enough DHV routines, you didn't break through her bitch shield! You need to up your game man.

The second one word answer is my first signal to say, "have a nice night" and move on.

John said...

I agree that the PUA community does not wholly promote super supplication, just most of it. I think it is very telling that when you type in: "the bitch shield" pua into Google, almost all the search results you get is on how to overcome/disarm the bitch shield - in other words "cope" and deal with it. You'd be hard pressed to find any advice that says to walk away at the first sign of trouble, which is exactly the point of my post.

I think the following link (the first in the search results) nicely summarizes the kind of mindset that is being taught to guys about how to deal with bitchy hard-to-get women. It's a repeating narrative: You gotta overcome it yada yada, it's a shit test yada yada, women are perfectly in their right to act that way yada yada.

http://www.puatraining.com/puablog/2010/06/disarm-bitchshield

P said...

Yeah, a PUA Training bootcamp was actually what I wrote the bad review about. I just thoroughly was let down and felt like I was being fed a line the whole time, like on day 2, "You guys are awesome! Every single one of you got phone numbers last night!! You guys all have what it takes to number-close. --When he'd later say a number is nothing: http://www.puajate.com/showthread.php?t=4803

Apparently he feels that all game is a scam as well. I didn't realize he only got big at first because he had a high-income career in PR first, just like how Neil Strauss was big in the music industry; he just didn't know how to use what he had. His girlfriend Lisa, at the end of the book, hooked up with him because of his music industry connections, then her new BF after Neil was some lead singer for some band. Neil's current girl (current I think) is a pornstar; because he recently wrote a book about the porn industry. Long-live career-networking dating, I guess.

But yeah, with PUA training. These guys were just so off-the-rail, drowning in their own Koolaid, full of Sh*t that I could take it. Amanda, AFC Adam's girlfriend, and pickup coach on his bootcamps said, "It's only a bitch shield if you let it be."

Another coach one night told me to go in-set and not come out for 5 minutes. I had to stay in there for 5 minutes even if I ran out of things to say and they didn't want me around!

I thought there was a premise in pickup about "leaving 15 minutes before they want you to" and "not coming off as needy" (both good pieces of advise actually, because girls don't want to worry they'll be stuck with you all night, even if they do like you."

I see where you're coming from because, like you said, all failures were one way or another attributed to the student's poor skill level. Either you weren't trying hard enough, or "you looked like you were trying to get the girl." That's why I got fed up and left at the end of night 2 anyway, then asked for a refund.

But then again, like I said earlier, this was a pick-up school that I speak out against anyway. That's why I hated it, left early, and got a refund. The better coaches do not do this. I wrote a review of that bootcamp on www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/candid-review-of-afc-adams-dc-bootcamp-vt50862.html if anyone wants to check it.

John said...

Listening to that girl Kezia in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yhNi5OU8FY , she raises one somewhat valid point that the bitch shield is justified because it keeps away clingy annoying guys. I can understand that point of view. However...

Even if a guy is good looking she will brush him off (in her words), because there's a "chance" he could be clingy, a "mosquito" in other words. So she focuses not on what might be a missed opportunity, but on risk avoidance, which is the polar opposite of what guys are being taught. Doesn't that strike anyone as insane?

The other thing she says is that some of the more "alpha" women (which oddly enough she says she is) will deliberately test a guy and give him a hard time to see what he's made of, as a way of weeding out the strong from the weak, so to speak. I have personally never found this to be true and have always found that when a girl gives you a hard time it's because she doesn't want to get with you, no matter how much you persist. PERIOD. There's also a contradiction in Kezia's statement since the only way a guy can pass her so-called "shit test" is by being a pesky "mosquito", which she is trying to get rid of in the first place. I think this mindset of hers creates an escape route for her, because if things don't work out with someone she actually likes she can always say HE didn't do enough, NOT she didn't do enough, or she was too bitchy and it turned him off. It's a way of rationalizing her failures and not taking responsibility for her actions. Lack of accountability, anyone?

In the video Kezia comes across as full of herself with a sort of air that she's doing guys a favor telling them how to get the "best women", while sitting on her high horse. But the truth is she's hardly unique in that she's making a (pseudo) science out of women making things difficult for men, and men needing to learn how to overcome those difficulties. And as a way of strengthening that position, she says that men who don't want to play the game are "missing out" or "weak".

John said...

^^^Hey P thanks for posting your comments and your detailed reviews. They're a great addition!

trevzilla said...

so what you're saying is western women are by and large bitches, and I should travel to Eastern Europe and Latin America where I can dispense with all this confusing pua material which requires a degree to learn? Good idea :) I've pretty much come to that conclusion talking to men who've traveled and told me how easy it is to approach women in those countries or how they, gasp, will approach you if they like you. They actually flirt and giggle unlike the cold, unresponsive women I get to deal with here in Vancouver. I pretty much agree that it is maddening trying to chat up women here, because they are completely passive when it comes to the dating game and I'm tired of it.

John said...

I want to travel to other countries and see what women are like there, because on average the stories from men are that they are much easier to approach and get to know. PUA goes out the window when you meet friendly women who don't view you with hostility just because you had the nerve to say hello and make small talk.

WWu777 said...

This is so true. I'm posting this blog in my forum. The best solution to the single man's dilemma and horrible situation in the US is at HappierAbroad.com

http://www.happierabroad.com

Winston

Rafał said...

Several point to summarize it in 4096 chars at most:

1. There is nothing in PUA that doesn't hold women accountable, other than your imagination. If you go to Doc Love's columns or TAF Relationships sections, you'll see that in fact men are often advised to dump their partners due to female's insurmountable flaws (be it constant lying, shady activites or whatever else unacceptable).

2. If picking up women is an effort and struggle, you're doing it wrong. Plain and simple. Sane, attracted female does not make it too hard for you. Maybe some tease here and there, but that's about it.

3. If you see no PUA material in succesful interaction, that could mean that those principles are internalized - they became a part of man's personality. So they are used constantly, but youaren't able to tell the difference (and anybody else for that matter). And then one is good at picking up women

4. Screening is a normal process that both men and women should be doing to save themselves from pain that mean people can bring.

5. If anything, you give free publicity to all PUAs out there.

Merry Christmas

Anonymous said...

"As you can see, PUAs are merely a more sophisticated type of woman pleaser; bolstered by a unique mix of fatalistic, evolutionary psychobabble, where women are concerned. It's a more advanced form of ass kissing, but behind the scenes instead of out in the open."

No, it isn't. You're making one mistake here that you should consider. We can always choose to walk away. I had a girl shit test me recently. I didn't appreciate it so I no longer talk to her. Before Game, I might have tried to be nicer to her to get back in her good graces. Now, I won't.

And no, I don't consider that interaction a failure because, by her test, she clearly wasn't what I wanted.

"The second flaw is that the seduction community never or rarely addresses those things that women are doing wrong."

Fair enough, next time a girl you just met at a bar does something to annoy you, call her a bitch and tell her she need to change her attitude. Let me know how it goes.

"But no, don't criticize women and don't criticize the social engineering that molds their behaviour."

How will it help me to tell an individual woman that the way she was socialized to pursue men sucks?

"The truth is that the only thing men can know about a woman from looking at her is, is her body language inviting?"

Which I learned once I got into the seduction community.

"Looking at these it's pretty obvious what's going on. Women's rotten behaviour is justified using some form of twisted evolutionary psychology argument, or deftly reframing the situation to always put the burden on the guy to get things done."

So you're part of the "Men Going Their Own Way" crowd right? I tried that myself. I'll stick with the seduction community.

"So why focus on something that's difficult when there are clearly easier options out there."

Ego boost, to have something other men want, to see if she's worth having around... in short, because I want her.

"A trained welder, or gymnast can reproduce their skills perfectly (or almost perfectly) every time."

Because they are dealing with metal and themselves. If you wanted an analogy that works better for this situation, think of a trained boxer. A trained boxer has been given tools to defeat his opponent. However, until he's been in enough fights, he doesn't really know what to expect.

The seduction community provides tools, that's it.

I'm out of time but I think you're selling the seduction community short. It's helped me an many other men. And no, I wasn't one of those guys who spent 3,000 dollars.

John said...

"1. There is nothing in PUA that doesn't hold women accountable, other than your imagination. If you go to Doc Love's columns or TAF Relationships sections, you'll see that in fact men are often advised to dump their partners due to female's insurmountable flaws (be it constant lying, shady activites or whatever else unacceptable)."

*** Women are not held accountable in the PUA methodology. I already explained the reasons why. Exceptions to this exist of course, but they are not the norm. Doc Love is not in the PUA camp. He is in the dating advice for men camp, so it's a stretch to say otherwise. The two are different. PUA advice follows the basic models introduced by Mystery, Neil Strauss, and the whole seduction community which codifies male/female interactions and tells guys which buttons to push and which behavioral gymnastics to use.

"2. If picking up women is an effort and struggle, you're doing it wrong. Plain and simple. Sane, attracted female does not make it too hard for you. Maybe some tease here and there, but that's about it."

*** It can be something the guy is doing wrong and it can be something the girl is doing wrong. By your statement you assume there is always a way to get the girl, while ignoring the shortcomings of the girl. Your mindset is basically "women are already perfect, it is you (the man) who has to figure out how to get them". So much PUA thinking comes from this type of thinking and working backwards. You are right that sane attracted females don't make things hard for you, but realize that many females aren't sane (even if they are attracted).

"3. If you see no PUA material in succesful interaction, that could mean that those principles are internalized - they became a part of man's personality. So they are used constantly, but youaren't able to tell the difference (and anybody else for that matter). And then one is good at picking up women"

*** I talked about this. Just because something gets results doesn't mean some PUA principle was used. This sort of reasoning falls into the "it's true even if you can't see it" reasoning which allows a lot of wiggle room for people who want to believe that PUA works.

"4. Screening is a normal process that both men and women should be doing to save themselves from pain that mean people can bring."

*** True.

"5. If anything, you give free publicity to all PUAs out there."

*** That won't stop me.

Merry Christmas

*** Same to you.

John said...

"As you can see, PUAs are merely a more sophisticated type of woman pleaser; bolstered by a unique mix of fatalistic, evolutionary psychobabble, where women are concerned. It's a more advanced form of ass kissing, but behind the scenes instead of out in the open."

No, it isn't. You're making one mistake here that you should consider. We can always choose to walk away. I had a girl shit test me recently. I didn't appreciate it so I no longer talk to her. Before Game, I might have tried to be nicer to her to get back in her good graces. Now, I won't.

*** You did a good thing I will admit. But almost all PUA advice would tell you that you should have striven to "pass" the test, or at least learned from it so that you do better next time.

"The second flaw is that the seduction community never or rarely addresses those things that women are doing wrong."

Fair enough, next time a girl you just met at a bar does something to annoy you, call her a bitch and tell her she need to change her attitude. Let me know how it goes.

*** That wouldn't work. But there is strength in numbers, so if enough guys stop trying so damn hard then women will change. But since so many men can't see past their dicks this won't happen anytime soon. However, that does not mean you are forced to play that style of game either.

"But no, don't criticize women and don't criticize the social engineering that molds their behaviour."

How will it help me to tell an individual woman that the way she was socialized to pursue men sucks?

*** Already answered.

"The truth is that the only thing men can know about a woman from looking at her is, is her body language inviting?"

Which I learned once I got into the seduction community.

*** Which makes it one of the few pieces of good advice you will find in the community.

"Looking at these it's pretty obvious what's going on. Women's rotten behaviour is justified using some form of twisted evolutionary psychology argument, or deftly reframing the situation to always put the burden on the guy to get things done."

So you're part of the "Men Going Their Own Way" crowd right? I tried that myself. I'll stick with the seduction community.

*** More like "don't waste time with bullshit" crowd.

"So why focus on something that's difficult when there are clearly easier options out there."

Ego boost, to have something other men want, to see if she's worth having around... in short, because I want her.

*** Fair enough. But eventually this game tires most guys out and you prefer substance above all else. My point of view is that no matter how attractive a girl is, if she is a pain to get with then she may as well be fat and unattractive for all the good it does me.

"A trained welder, or gymnast can reproduce their skills perfectly (or almost perfectly) every time."

Because they are dealing with metal and themselves. If you wanted an analogy that works better for this situation, think of a trained boxer. A trained boxer has been given tools to defeat his opponent. However, until he's been in enough fights, he doesn't really know what to expect.

The seduction community provides tools, that's it.

*** It's not ideal to see male/female interactions as an adversarial situation. Easier is better when it comes to meeting people.

I'm out of time but I think you're selling the seduction community short. It's helped me an many other men. And no, I wasn't one of those guys who spent 3,000 dollars.

*** From what I've seen and experienced it helps a bit but mostly hurts, unless you are very careful and take the "suggestions" with a big grain of salt.

Rafał said...

*** Women are not held accountable in the PUA methodology. I already explained the reasons why. Exceptions to this exist of course, but they are not the norm.

What's the norm? What you make it to be? As far as I know, any separate entity is seduction community is in business competition with one another, so there is no one norm for anything.

*** Doc Love is not in the PUA camp. He is in the dating advice for men camp, so it's a stretch to say otherwise. The two are different.

What's PUA if not dating advice for men? Medical advice? Tech advice? Anyways, his "System" is more complete than, say, David D's works.

*** PUA advice follows the basic models introduced by Mystery, Neil Strauss, and the whole seduction community which codifies male/female interactions and tells guys which buttons to push and which behavioral gymnastics to use.

Oh please, forget about "Mystery Method" and "The Game" - they're both outdated now, any opener from either is likely to get you called out in no time. For modern PUA, try "Real Social Dynamics" or "Magic Bullets". David D is niche - some good advice, but very limited in its scope.

*** By your statement you assume there is always a way to get the girl, while ignoring the shortcomings of the girl.Your mindset is basically "women are already perfect, it is you (the man) who has to figure out how to get them". So much PUA thinking comes from this type of thinking and working backwards.

No, you're just setting up a straw man argument. Assumed female perfection has already been dealt with in previous comment.

*** but realize that many females aren't sane (even if they are attracted).

If they aren't, there's one advice you'll get from either Doc Love, or TAF members: "Run!"

*** I talked about this. Just because something gets results doesn't mean some PUA principle was used. This sort of reasoning falls into the "it's true even if you can't see it" reasoning which allows a lot of wiggle room for people who want to believe that PUA works.

It doesn't mean otherwise either. So whole argument is moot without knowing if person is/was into PUA or not.

*** That won't stop me.

Make no mistake, that's fine by me, whole community and most everyone else in the world.

*** You did a good thing I will admit. But almost all PUA advice would tell you that you should have striven to "pass" the test, or at least learned from it so that you do better next time.

The way to pass the test is to ignore it altogether or laugh it off. If you make any effort, you failed.

John said...

"What's the norm? What you make it to be? As far as I know, any separate entity is seduction community is in business competition with one another, so there is no one norm for anything."

*** The pick up arts is definitely distinguishable in the realm of dating advice. All the terminology like shit test, compliance testing, attraction switches, hoop theory, group theory, neg, false disqualification, AMOG, false time constraint, body rocking, etc falls into the PUA camp.

"What's PUA if not dating advice for men? Medical advice? Tech advice? Anyways, his "System" is more complete than, say, David D's works."

*** Okay, maybe some people would see PUA as encompassing all dating advice, but when I went through it PUA meant something very specific. And I doubt that has changed very much.

"PUA advice follows the basic models introduced by Mystery, Neil Strauss, and the whole seduction community which codifies male/female interactions and tells guys which buttons to push and which behavioral gymnastics to use."

Oh please, forget about "Mystery Method" and "The Game" - they're both outdated now, any opener from either is likely to get you called out in no time. For modern PUA, try "Real Social Dynamics" or "Magic Bullets". David D is niche - some good advice, but very limited in its scope.

*** They are hardly outdated, and are still the most popular among PUA proponents, by far. If you want proof go to Google Keyword Tool, set the match type to Exact, and All Countries. You will see that the terms "The Game", "Neil Strauss", "Mystery Method", and "David DeAngelo" are searched for much more often than "Magic Bullets" or "Real Social Dynamics". Here are the numbers:

The Game - 301,000
Neil Strauss - 33,100
David DeAngelo - 22,200
Mystery Method - 14,800
Real Social Dynamics - 5,400
Magic Bullets - 3,600

"By your statement you assume there is always a way to get the girl, while ignoring the shortcomings of the girl.Your mindset is basically "women are already perfect, it is you (the man) who has to figure out how to get them". So much PUA thinking comes from this type of thinking and working backwards."

No, you're just setting up a straw man argument. Assumed female perfection has already been dealt with in previous comment.

*** Okay, it might not be your assumption but most PUAs by default assume that the burden to get results rests with the guy.

"but realize that many females aren't sane (even if they are attracted)."

If they aren't, there's one advice you'll get from either Doc Love, or TAF members: "Run!"

*** Doc Love will give you this advice but TAF members mostly do not. If a guy presses them for an answer as to why he is failing with women the knee-jerk response is generally that the guy is to blame or he needs to improve something. If you read enough advice this general attitude will bleed through loud and clear.

"I talked about this. Just because something gets results doesn't mean some PUA principle was used. This sort of reasoning falls into the "it's true even if you can't see it" reasoning which allows a lot of wiggle room for people who want to believe that PUA works."

It doesn't mean otherwise either. So whole argument is moot without knowing if person is/was into PUA or not.

*** I'm saying that with this premise you can fill in a lot of blanks with your own version of what happened. That makes it kind of like religion in some ways, impossible to disprove, therefore it must be true.

"The way to pass the test is to ignore it altogether or laugh it off. If you make any effort, you failed."

*** Then maybe it's not a test after all. If the best reaction is to pretend it doesn't exist then that could be because it doesn't exist to begin with. Food for thought.

Rafał said...

*** The pick up arts is definitely distinguishable in the realm of dating advice. All the terminology like shit test, compliance testing, attraction switches, hoop theory, group theory, neg, false disqualification, AMOG, false time constraint, body rocking, etc falls into the PUA camp.

You define it by jargon? Therefore David de Angelo would not have anything to do with PUA, because I can't ever recall him using any of these, and I've read his newsletters for a while.

*** Okay, maybe some people would see PUA as encompassing all dating advice, but when I went through it PUA meant something very specific. And I doubt that has changed very much.

So it's just a nomenclature issue. Nevermind, let's just say "community".

*** They are hardly outdated, and are still the most popular among PUA proponents, by far. If you want proof go to Google Keyword Tool, set the match type to Exact, and All Countries. You will see that the terms "The Game", "Neil Strauss", "Mystery Method", and "David DeAngelo" are searched for much more often than "Magic Bullets" or "Real Social Dynamics". Here are the numbers:

The very fact that millions bought it, learned several lines and used them mindlessly and now those lines are pretty much blacklisted for newbies, makes them both outdated. Also, popularity is not a measure of anything else - compare how many people buy records with classical music and how many buy Britney Spears' CDs. Does that mean Britney Spears is musically superior to classical composers?

*** Doc Love will give you this advice but TAF members mostly do not.

Not really, check the "relationships" section. I remember one case in particular, when a guy asked about a woman who lied to him about her parents recently dying just to see if he would support her in hard times. She also hid the fact that she was married with children (guy found out via fb search). Take a wild guess what advice was given, also by me. "The problem is you"? I don't think so...

*** If a guy presses them for an answer as to why he is failing with women the knee-jerk response is generally that the guy is to blame or he needs to improve something. If you read enough advice this general attitude will bleed through loud and clear.

Let's make a distinction:

If you have trouble with specific female - it may be you, or it may be her.

If you constantly fail, over and over, with various females - it's definitely you.


*** I'm saying that with this premise you can fill in a lot of blanks with your own version of what happened. That makes it kind of like religion in some ways, impossible to disprove, therefore it must be true.

But it was you who first brought it - "successful interaction, where was no PUA, just normal flirting" blah, blah. I never claimed any absolute, quite the opposite.

*** Then maybe it's not a test after all. If the best reaction is to pretend it doesn't exist then that could be because it doesn't exist to begin with. Food for thought.

No, you don't pretend it doesn't exist. You know it exists, but it's rubbish, so you don't put effort into it.

John said...

"You define it by jargon? Therefore David de Angelo would not have anything to do with PUA, because I can't ever recall him using any of these, and I've read his newsletters for a while."

*** The jargon comes from the large body of information specific to PUAs. David D uses much less jargon but teaches a lot of button pushing, such as cocky/funny, and the importance of doing certain "critical" things to get women (in his words).

"The very fact that millions bought it, learned several lines and used them mindlessly and now those lines are pretty much blacklisted for newbies, makes them both outdated. Also, popularity is not a measure of anything else - compare how many people buy records with classical music and how many buy Britney Spears' CDs. Does that mean Britney Spears is musically superior to classical composers?"

*** Outdated means that something is becoming less popular or is on the verge of becoming less popular. That does not seem to be the case with the PUA products that are currently most popular. And they certainly have survived the test of time.

"Not really, check the "relationships" section. I remember one case in particular, when a guy asked about a woman who lied to him about her parents recently dying just to see if he would support her in hard times. She also hid the fact that she was married with children (guy found out via fb search). Take a wild guess what advice was given, also by me. "The problem is you"? I don't think so..."

*** This is one specific case.

"Let's make a distinction:

If you have trouble with specific female - it may be you, or it may be her."

*** True.

"If you constantly fail, over and over, with various females - it's definitely you."

*** Also true.

WWu777 said...

Great article. I posted it in my forum thread about why PUA doesn't work but Global Dating does:

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6811

Anonymous said...

I take issue with your first flaw. See, it’s not about catering to women at all. It’s about pushing the right buttons to get what we want. For some of us, it’s a long-term relationship. For others it’s as many women into their bed as they can.

Your second flaw I’m not sure how to address. What good is it to complain about the nature of women? If I meet a beautiful woman at a bar and she starts acting like a bitch, what good does it do me for calling her one and tell her to grow up? Try that sometime and let me know how it goes. The seduction community teaches you how to deal with it sure. But quite frankly, we can always walk away (and I do).

You speak at length how bad women are and I get it. I’ve tried the whole Men Going Their Own Way thing. It sucks, it really really sucks. So, I’d like women back in my life. I say women, not a radical feminists.

Your analogy of the trained welder is a poor one because metal doesn’t change. Think instead of a professional boxer. His trainer can give him every tool in the book and he can still get knocked out. That’s closer because no matter what the skill, you’re always dealing with another person.

Anyway, I think you’re selling it short. And besides, if it helps men get what they want, what’s the problem?

John said...

"I take issue with your first flaw. See, it’s not about catering to women at all. It’s about pushing the right buttons to get what we want. For some of us, it’s a long-term relationship. For others it’s as many women into their bed as they can."

*** It is about catering to women. The pick up arts is the only pseudo-scientific solution to men's difficulties with women that permits the women to do as LITTLE as possible. It allows women the freedom to be as passive as they want, and also as flaky and bitchy as they want. The pick up arts sees men as wholly responsible for how successful a particular man is with a woman. Any PUA inspired feedback/analysis of a failure usually consists of criticism of the man doing things wrong or not doing things right. Now I'll admit this is not 100% true all the time, but in general the bias leans heavily in this direction.

"Your second flaw I’m not sure how to address. What good is it to complain about the nature of women?"

*** There's the nature of how women are and there's the way many women have been conditioned to act (and not in a good way). If men can learn how to do better with women, women can learn how to do better with men. It's a two way street. The key is to know when you've done your part, and not go beyond that.

"If I meet a beautiful woman at a bar and she starts acting like a bitch, what good does it do me for calling her one and tell her to grow up? Try that sometime and let me know how it goes."

*** If enough guys did that it would have a positive effect. But introspection doesn't happen when everyone is kissing up to you or using the ultimate coping strategy known as "game" in order to get with you.

"Your analogy of the trained welder is a poor one because metal doesn’t change. Think instead of a professional boxer. His trainer can give him every tool in the book and he can still get knocked out. That’s closer because no matter what the skill, you’re always dealing with another person."

*** The best friendships don't start in a combat situation. Imagine if you chat up some random guys and they start acting rude and ignoring you. Would you try to overcome their resistance? That would be ridiculous. So why should it be any different with women? And spare me the evolutionary explanation that she's testing you to see how much of a man you are. No woman who is interested is going to give you a hard time, unless she's got mental problems.

"Anyway, I think you’re selling it short. And besides, if it helps men get what they want, what’s the problem?"

*** If it helps, great. But from what I've seen, it's very hard to get PUA to work for you. However, it is very easy to get hurt by PUA.

Anonymous said...

John, you've obviously never been married or really had a long term relationship with a woman. It also sounds like you're very angry at women. Are you really advocating that the answer is to somehow turn around modern feminie culture, overturn modern feminie society, and turn around female biology? If not, then I'd like to here what your solution is (other than seeking out only that minority of women you talk about that don't play games). You also sound VERY angry at the PUA movement. I surmise you read the Mystery Method, tried it and it didn't get you the results you wanted. Maybe someone yelled or laughed at you or rejected you in some other way. It's OK. It happens to all of us. If I can find a method that gives me a 12% success rate with women, I would pay thousands for it. That means I'll be able to date 1 out of every 10 I approach. I'll take it. The hard facts are this. Women are very different than men. We both operate on different premises. Women do rely on emotions more than men do. Pick up a biology book and read a bit about the different hormones that run through us and you'll understand the different effect of testosterone, estrogen etc. If you think calling women out as little children is going to land you any dates, good luck to you. I'm not a PUA nor am I a member of the community. But I have read many of the materials of the Seduction community as well as dating coaches of all differnt philosophies. The bottom line is that reading all those materials gave me more confidence and understanding to be able to meet and converse with women. Nothing is 100% in this world. As intelligent adult human beings, its our job to be judicious enough to eat the meat and spit out the bones in everything we process. Let me repeat, there is nothing that is 100% fool proof in life. There are a lot of positives in the PUA philosophy. Harness them and I guarantee your dating life will improve. The rest is up to you.

I think more than anything, you need to forgive the women who so wronged you in the past. Once you can get past that you will be happier. There many things in this world that you will not have control over and will not be able to change. The ability to adjust to our circumstances is what makes us advanced beings. Flexibility in anything you do in life will make you more successful.

Good luck and all the best to you....

AJD

John said...

I think you're reading into my post what you want to, and your comment is so off topic that I'm at a loss to respond to it. You barely address my points. I think you might be one of those types who sees criticism as negativity or evidence that someone has failed miserably at something, and is just lashing out. Conclusion: ignore the message, he's just bitter!

One other thing, if someone has been hurt by someone or something that does not necessarily make their criticism invalid, since the only way someone is going to speak out against something is if they got hurt by it, or has seen it hurt others, or both. If things were peachy, why would anyone ever complain? So you can't use perceived bitterness as grounds to dismiss what anyone says. It's a sad fact that many people automatically go after the messenger rather than address the message.

Rafał said...

*** The jargon comes from the large body of information specific to PUAs. David D uses much less jargon but teaches a lot of button pushing, such as cocky/funny, and the importance of doing certain "critical" things to get women (in his words).

So, if you take the PUA advice, strip it out of the jargon and translate into sth more understandable in common language, what do you get?

*** Outdated means that something is becoming less popular or is on the verge of becoming less popular. That does not seem to be the case with the PUA products that are currently most popular. And they certainly have survived the test of time.

If using them can get you called out "Is that from the Pick-up Artist show?", then definitely no.

*** This is one specific case.

One of the many, which you will find as you research mentioned forum.

*** It is about catering to women. The pick up arts is the only pseudo-scientific solution to men's difficulties with women that permits the women to do as LITTLE as possible. It allows women the freedom to be as passive as they want, and also as flaky and bitchy as they want. The pick up arts sees men as wholly responsible for how successful a particular man is with a woman. Any PUA inspired feedback/analysis of a failure usually consists of criticism of the man doing things wrong or not doing things right. Now I'll admit this is not 100% true all the time, but in general the bias leans heavily in this direction.

I don't know what communities have you seen, but general consensus where I do post is that 100% passive woman, doing nothing = not interested. Next. Flaky woman = same thing. Bitchy woman = you do the math

*** There's the nature of how women are and there's the way many women have been conditioned to act (and not in a good way). If men can learn how to do better with women, women can learn how to do better with men. It's a two way street. The key is to know when you've done your part, and not go beyond that.

It's not like you will convert any of those spoiled females into good girls. Why waste your time with them?

John said...

The Love Systems Triad is a key component of Love Systems teachings. They are affiliated with The Attraction Forums - TAF.

Here is the link explaining it:

http://www.lovesystems.com/dating-advice/approaching/triad

Here are two excerpts from "the triad":

-Excerpt 1-

Most women - especially beautiful women who are used to a lot of attention from men - won't sleep with someone new unless at least three specific factors are present:

* She feels the right kind of emotional connection with you.
* She has a physical connection with you.
* The two of you are alone somewhere where sex can reasonably happen (Logistics).

Now, it's not quite as easy as flipping a switch (or three switches). There is usually a bunch of intermediate steps on the way to her being emotionally, physically, and logistically ready to sleep with you. It's like driving a car. You don't usually go straight into fifth gear; you build momentum by accelerating through the gears in the right order until you're going full speed.




-Excerpt 2-

Let the sequence be a guide, not a straightjacket. Think of it like you have three glasses, and you need to fill them all with water. These glasses represent your Attraction, Qualification, and Comfort levels with a specific woman. Fill them in that order, but remember that water, like emotions, can evaporate. A woman who felt attracted to you last week (or even an hour ago, at a busy and exciting nightclub) might not feel as attracted to you right now. This can happen during the same conversation, if you let her Attraction levels dissipate once you've on to Qualification and Comfort. In these situations, you have to ‘top up' the Attraction glass while in a later phase. This is part of what we mean when we talk about ‘calibration' later in this book.

Incidentally, this is why first phone calls and first dates should usually involve you "refreshing" her Attraction, Qualification, and Comfort levels before you break new ground.

In case you are wondering, you can't prepare for this "evaporation" by giving a woman "extra" Attraction, Qualification, or Comfort early on. In other words, you can't overfill a glass to save some for later. This is a common mistake when men first learn Love Systems Attraction techniques, and figure that more is better. It's not. Trying to attract a woman who is already attracted won't make her more into you; it's more likely to frustrate her and cause her to lose interest altogether.


The first little bit of this last excerpt sounds encouraging enough, but then you read the remainder...

If this doesn't communicate to a male reader that it is ALL up to him (or nearly all up to him) how things turn out with a particular women, then I don't know what does. Seems pretty obvious if you ask me. Now I'll reiterate that not every piece of feedback on TAF is going to blame the guy for things not working out, but it's a fact that the burden is most times placed on the guy to make things happen, not 100% of the burden but most, and certainly much more than his fair share.

Rafał said...

No, I do not see ANYTHING in those excerpt referring to any proportions of effort put by a man vs effort put by a woman.

Ultimately, if you think you put too much effort into it, you probably are. And you are, once again, doing the whole thing wrong. Whenever I was feeling I'm trying too hard, I was, and the female wasn't interested either way (in fact may be neutral at first, putting too heavy effort for >some random broad you don't even know< may turn her completely off), so it was pointless.

Rafał said...

Also, keep in mind that you can't control most of her reactions. If you can't control it, no point in worrying it. Worry (hopefully not quite literally) about your reactions to her.

Anonymous said...

I shit you not, the best thing that could ever happen to relations between men and women is the legalization of prostitution. Men would be able to approach women from standpoint of genuine desire as opposed to craven desperation. Keeping prostitution illegal amounts to a social government subsidy for women. It's an unfair advantage because it grotesquely inflates the value of sex, which men evidently need more than (you could reasonably argue this point but it would be a tough sell). Men being unable to find a sex partner is a problem for which a solution has existed since the dawn of civilization. It's time to let the free market work it's magic! :p. It'd be good for women too. If they are interested in keeping a man around they are going to need to bring more to the table than just a vagina, it'll build character.

Anonymous said...

Hahahahaha. You make it sound like Pua should be out to change the society of the dating world. I agree with a lot of points you made. The advertisments of the Pua are fear based and that there are some things questionable about female dating society.

Pua job is to teach you how to conform to society. Not change It. They teach you how to appproach and what the main psychology is behind the approach. Maybe there is a double standard. in school they don't teach you what's right and what's wrong, they teach you what is acceptable and expected its your job to become educated enough to grow and change the system.

Anonymous said...

Balance is often the key factor that separates the good from the bad.

PUA isn't specifically my expertise. It's learning, teaching and communicating.

This blog post, in my view, describes well a particular group of PUAs and based on the characteristics outlined they appear immature and dogmatic. Though, as it goes for any subject, a lot of that are just honest mistakes.

Newcomers to pretty much ANY subject tend to be very dogmatic and end up using algorithms that are followed in robot-like veneration of their guru.

Typically they're not skilled enough to allow the disclaimers, exceptions and heuristic advice to form a restrictive box around the subject.

For those with good enough analytical skills maturation will set in and make for a much more balanced PUA. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that an evolved "PUA" would eventually prefer to call himself something else - or just say "I'm pretty good at talking to women and getting romantic with them".

One big problem is the baggage one comes with, I think. This article singles out, it seems, one particular group of initally insecure men who don't know how to go about social situations with women.

Of course they're liable to replace one pedestal with another. IF PUAs actually does this they will reek of desperation. Dunno if they do?

On the other hand it's also easy to just give up and blame the women. Bit of a sour grapes thing. Yet replacing irrational veneration for women with misogyny isn't really the balanced way either.

Another thing in the favor of PUA skills is the "locus of control" issue.

Put shortly some people think they are mostly controlled by outside forces and vice versa.

Again, you can go overboard as a noob on locus of control. So don't do that :)

If you're in a social setting, however, it will most likely be beneficial to focus on that which you can control: yourself.

You certainly got a point wrt. the statistics: approach a gazillion women and you're bound to get success. However, don't discount the fact that having talked to a LOT of different women tend to both demystify them and train your conversational skills.

Whining about feminism and set cultural pathologies (WRONG as those are) won't get you anywhere, because you can't change decades of cultural indoctrination in a girls that you might have only minutes to spend with.

With growing self-esteem and self-confidence (in the men!) a LOT of those pathologies you identify in the article would evaporate.

A confident man with high self-esteem would not put up with changing himself fundamentally or taking vile, descipable sh*t from women who subscribe to the fallacy that "women have all the power".

They are actually more on a manipulatory vendetta against them for real or imagined insults.

Such PUAs seem to be more interested in the ego-boost, so they can brag to their friends.

Played nicely by a high self-esteem man, however, an evolved PUA would love women a whole lot and honestly try to make them happy while being 100% respectful of himself in the process.

This would not invalidate the (correct) theory that the road to the bedroom will have to happen through the "dance of escalation". Having sex on the third date is just a cultural norm for escalation.

I think the social athlete may have the ability to escalate smoother and faster than that, not the least because he actually knows the underlying principle underpinning the rule of thumb.

Again, going "robot" on the issue is essentially missing the point that it's about getting better social skills.

Anonymous said...

Wow, you nailed this. Tere was a comment you wrote that was really interesting.

"It seems that less is expected from women than from children. That alone speaks volumes."

Arguing it from another point of view, couldn't this also mean that society (and PUA's in general) don't really put women on a pedestal, but really look at them as lower than shit? Think about it. Men have to do all of the work because women are dumb, stupid and really don't comprehend what they are doing anyway. Not saying this is true, but i is another interpretation. Essentially, by saying children are held accountable but women are not, it can be the equivalent of saying "at least children have the emotional intelligence to be held accountable..."

Zhu said...

I got mixed feeling with your post. Nevertheless it is a very interesting read. I do find your point quite "wakening" about PUA just put the girls from 1 pedestal to another. Come to think about it it is quite true, at the end of the day, PUA is just learning "advanced ass kissing technique" as you phrase it.

But PUA is not all that "useless" as you state it. I've been in the scene for 3 years now, had my share of success. I do realize 95% of the guru talks are just pure vague bullshit, and the other 5% is hard to implement without a devoted mind. But at least I learn 2 things from the PUA community:

1. Everything is YOUR FAULT:

Sure we interpret every bad behavior by woman as some kind of test and being positively bias towards them. But what if we decide to blame it on the woman and make our failure "not our fault"? We will just never improve.

2. Courage to take action:

After 3 years of countless reading. I can totally agree with you it's all a law of average game. More approach = more laid. It is so easy to know this, but it is hard to implement, not all people are so confident naturally.

The PUA theories have given courage to many telling them at least it is possible if you done enough approach.

Anonymous said...

The good people are just trying to help guys with bad social skills to get better social skills.

It usually comes down to one thing... HAVE FUN!!!! :)

Babalu said...

Pick Up can be as diverse as mankind itself, so an article on the flaws of a PUA makes as much sense as arguing that food is bad because it makes fat or exercise causes injury.

How deeply have you explored PU and how much success did you have?

Jon said...

To me the author seems to just not understand women.

He wants them to "behave better" IE according to his personal comfort zones and ideals, to make them 'safer' for him, so he doesn't have to face his fears, get over excuses and lead his life in the moment.

Good PUA is about dropping the pedestals in the sense that you must leave behind your slavish attachment to your *idea* of woman, your attachments to outcomes and ideas in your head... and find the present moment. The "pedestal" you move woman on to is the one where you worship who she *really* is, in the moment. There is nothing wrong with that, it's called love. But it's very different from beta love, which is in reality all about himself.

Anonymous said...

The point is that PUA is likely no more effective than basic dating skills most people learn at some point in their life. Just by socializing regularly and asking girls out your chances to find decent match are fair enough (at least where I live, but it's hard to believe it's different in Western world). And that's only if you keep it balanced.

"Pick Up can be as diverse as mankind itself, so an article on the flaws of a PUA makes as much sense as arguing that food is bad because it makes fat or exercise causes injury."

The articles points out flows at specific kind of Pick Up. There is a massive difference between Pick Up and basic dating. These are completely two different ideologies.

"The good people are just trying to help guys with bad social skills to get better social skills.

It usually comes down to one thing... HAVE FUN!!!! :)"

The good people are just trying to get money out of you. There is no for any of you to know if these PUA skills are more effective than basic dating. ;) You are either believing it or not.

"1. Everything is YOUR FAULT:

Sure we interpret every bad behavior by woman as some kind of test and being positively bias towards them. But what if we decide to blame it on the woman and make our failure "not our fault"? We will just never improve."

Not necessarily - you can still date normal girls.

Anonymous said...

For a lot of men who have trouble with women they have given up and accepted that they'll never be good with women. Upon discovering the PUA community it is one of the biggest reliefs as it's saying to them you can get the hottest girls.

If as you say in your article that PUA is a scam then how do men who are not successful with women improve?

If it is just a numbers game how do you explain why if two men who talked to the same number of women one would be a lot more successful than the other, what sets them apart even if both have similair social skills etc or does it again all just come down to looks?

Also it makes no sense to call it getting lucky, you should be able to control what women you get to a certain extent - obviously not every women will like you but if you go to a club on a friday night you should be able to pull.

Anonymous said...

Answer to above person:

Looks will probably account for the biggest difference
After that it's all personal preferences. Some women will find guy As laughter adorable, some will love his style, his accent, others will despise it and fall for person Bs humor, his job (she just looooves welders), or just a bunch of random similar interests.

The only constant factors that will always make a difference on a huge sample, you already know:

Looks
Status
Resources

Other then that, you get along with some women, and not others.

You don't need a special skillset to talk to a woman. The entire idea is retarded. Talk to her like you would another person, if you have trouble socializing with people in general you'll also have troubles socializing with a woman. Socialize enough and you'll become more socially aware and intelligent.

Lasse Elkjær said...

Thank you so much for writing this post, very well written and very go god points, hit me hard. Just shared it on the danish PUA forum also.

You other posts seems to be very god to.

Big ups from here !

Lasse

Anonymous said...

I read this on Seddit, expecting holes left and right in your argument... but I'm not only impressed but also enlightened. I started reading into PUA thinking that I was doing everything wrong, even though my life experience said otherwise. I couldn't pinpoint why or how I kept getting the exception to the rules, but it makes sense that in the end, I'm tired of the same game that PUA guys are playing. It's not fun anymore, nor healthy to live by. (physicly and emotionally.)

I'm happy for what I've learned, and yes, some of the things I've picked up will surely pass on to my offspring, but they'll have a happier life if they found a different game to play, rather then being wolfs on insecurities. maybe some chess?

Anonymous said...

Addendem, If I may suggest to the guys reading this. There's one blog that's really did a number for me, and it's called "Art of Manliness". It's more of a collection of articles and stories to help build yourself to be a better person, citizen, and father figure. For me, I felt that most people where not looking for a PUA community, but rather, more as a how to better themselfs, much like a father or uncle they've might of looked up to.

Just putting it out there for anyone to find.

Anonymous said...

It's strange how all these "women's expectations of men" etc are spoken about as facts but only by men. I've never met a woman as dependant and infantile as these courses as well as manhood101 describes them. Well, I've met one but she has a histrionic personality disorder so that ought to be exception rather than law, no?

Where I'm from an adult takes responsibility for their actions regardless of gender and the special exception for women only exists within groups of men who pin all their hatred on the opposite sex (in the same way that some groups of women love nothing more than to talk about what assholes men are).

Personally I think it's better if we can enjoy all the good stuff - food, sex, music, life - together without turning it into a game where we are opponents rather than colleagues.

Maggie Wallbanks said...

I am dubious of anything that compares women to children, but I agree with the majority of your points. PUA material is generally useless, and if it isn't it is advice of the painfully obvious kind.

Shon said...

@Anonymous (the one John went back and forth with)

Men who go their own way are called LEADERS.

AlekNovy said...

@ Maggie Who Said

"I am dubious of anything that compares women to children"

John wasn't comparing women to children. He was criticizing the PUA/game community for treating women AS IF they were children.

John is not comparing women to children. He is comparing how PUAs treat women, with how some people treat children.

CPD said...

Hey,

Here's my issue with PUA, and this is as a guy who's tried it a little bit:

It turns you into a fucking psycho.

OK, that is an exaggeration, but I know enough guys who wound up in a place where all women were potential conquests and all men were competition and obstacles to be overcome. They walked around in this mindset 24/7. You can't live like that.

I think it's great to help shy guys be a little more social, but it's not really about that. It's about "Hey, you wanna get laid? It's easy! Just take everything that makes you you, chuck it out the window, and do exactly what you think other people will like."

Anonymous said...

As somone with more than a passing knowledge of neurobiology, the biophysics and social predicates of "mating", and a guy whose real genius (I'm making that claim arrognat claim based on George Bernard Shaw's observation that "Common sense is instinct and enough of it is genius") is common sense, I have come to the conclusion that "The PUA Scam" is not a swindle or trickery (which is the accepted definition of "scam" but much more like the tent-revival meetings of the past where self-ordained prophets capitalized on the desperation of people enduring droughts, drugs, doubts, and desperation.

It is not science since there is a complete absense of scientific method. Has Dave Deangelo ever attempted a controlled study ofhis methods? It wouldn't be difficult: The control group could be given a mini-course to 50 subjects which feature "Dave's Ten Commandments to Double Your Dating".
these could actually be his most powerfull techniques. The experimental group would be given
a seminar of the same name but they taught very generic, established principles--let's say those taught more than 50 years ago by Dale Carnegie for "influencing people" but which contradict Deangelo's techniques.

Each group would be dispatched (after subjects in each group were randomly assigned to the experimental or control group) to Fifth Avenue and Park between W59th Street and 32rd Street for 12 hours between 1:00 p.m. and 1:00 a.m. on a Friday.
Members of both groups would have hundreds of opportunities to use their techniques.

D'Angelo, I'm guessing, as would "Mystery", Ross Jeffries, and Robert Greene, the author of "The Artof Seduction" (perhaps the most incredulous of the lot)
wouldnot agree to an experiment like this.There are doubtless methodological flaws but it would provide data that beats the hell out of what they pass off as the proofof their methods now.

To cut to the chase, the fundamental, inescapable, and overwhelming obstacle that make the information these guys basically worthless can be understood in light of an expression from the Vedas:
"Neti, neti'--which basically means what works for me willnot necessarily work for you and what worked for me yesterday may not work for me today."

The bottomline is that there is not a single method that delivers on the hype. People are not stupid. If there was a guaranteed way for the man of average appearance, average intelligence, and average income to cultivate irresistable sexual attraction to him in even one in every 100 women he finds highly desirable, the person who came up with that method would be as rich as Bill Gates.

Not one of these guys has improved on Ovid's "The Art of Love" and if there is a scam in this business it's the arrogance of those who believe and sell NLP as the ticket to the promisedland.

Modelling?

Most of us could have spentourlives hanging out with Warren Beatty, he could have told you the secret to his innumerable conquests, and we would NEVER come close to achieving a 100th of his success. Why?
because he's Warren Beatty and we're not.

The guys dropping hundreds or thousands sitting at the feet of these guys should save their money and simply approach four or five women a day with no ulterior motive except overcoming fear of being put down, mocked, or rebuffed, until they have driven a stake through the heart of that fear.

Once you have conquered fear--not with parlor tricks but with the sheer power of your will, then you're in the game. You just might approach the kind of woman who you thought was out of your league at the most opportune time and surprise the hell out of yourself.

You really want to double your dating? Then be prepared to quadruple the numberof times a woman you approach says, "Thanks but no thanks."

Anonymous said...

Re: Age:

Of, course, it matters--but only if you let it. I'm 62 and I have had 20-somethings start conversations with me. Part of it is that I look like I'm in my late 30's or early 40's. The biggest part of it, however, is that a guy their own age may be much better looking and a player but they are playing the wrong game.

Someone once said, "Every disadvantage has within it the seeds of an equivalent or greater benefit."

I've learned things younger guys won't if they live to be 500. I've learned, for instance, that one must not get caught upin a woman's beauty, even if she is the second coming of Helen of Troy, because that's
what 99.999% of men will do. I've learned early in a game to keep in mind that beautiful women are among the most discriminated humans on the planet
and despite the outer beauty many are lonely, sick of being trated as objects of desire, and that in the U.S.
one infour college women were raped or eluded an attempted rape. The numbers for women who were emotionally traumatized as children is worse.Then there are those who are so beautiful they are lonely--envied by same-sex friends and avoided by men intimidated by their beauty.

You don'tlearn this stuff when you're 30 or 40 and the PUA's don't talk about it. It's all about the game to them. No matter who they justify it, women are objects to be possessed.

Find a used copy of "Pairing" by George Bach. It was written in the 70's and it still blows away all the psycho-babble these PUA's are selling.

And then if you really want to know why you are having such a hard time breaking through with women or approaching and dating the ones youare attracted to get "Life Unlocked".

Those two books (and perhaps "Dress for Success") will cost you less than $30.00 total and if you apply what these guys teach you, you'llnever take a PUA seriously again.

Joe said...

I live in the Big Bad Apple, I was having some luck with women before PUA, small things, kissing and dates, with hot girls but no sex, still better than nothing. I studied the Pick Up Arts to try to change that, almost everything I could get my hands on.

I studied it, rehearsed it, applied it and went out into the city for months. I got rejected more than I've ever been, I changed into the wrong man, I allowed a PUA stranger to put the idea in my head that "it's always my fault" thinking a good man like me failed these women, a good man like me failed myself and worst of all... believing that a good man like me wasn't good enough and I had to become someone else.

I finally dropped all the bullshit. I realized realized that being myself was always good enough and all I needed to do was drop all this PUA nonsense, calm down, stop chasing the wrong women, and start chasing the women that want you for you.

Then and only then, I got laid, lots of times :)

I got laid doing it my way. John the author of "Lifestyle Journey For Men" speaks the truth. I agree with him 110% on everything on his entire blog. Most PUA types are completely misunderstanding John and the points he is making is flying right over their corrupted, artificial, cult, PUA minds.

John's message is VERY fucking simple and it's just like what happened to me in my life. It's the most truthful thing I've ever read so far, John's message is....

the mating dance between a man and a female is suppose to be easy. You as the man put in 50% and the women puts in 50% too, because it takes two to tango, give and take, no games, no drama, no PUA bullshit.

I met girls who wanted me for me and they made it easy for me to have sex with them and be in a relationship with them.

I can live my life in peace, with friends and good interactions with women, carefully picking the women I can get with and who's clearly interested in me. Having the wonderful peace of mind knowing she has to do her part and so do I, and if she doesn't meet me half way after giving her 50% it's not my fault, I did everything that I could and it's time to move on to the next women, with no regrets, no guilt, no needless judgement, no fucking AFC conversations in your head.

It Takes Two To Tango and it's not always your fault because there are a lot of fucked bitches out there. That is true, PUA said's "there's no such thing as a bitch, she's just acting like a bitch to you" that is retarded, that's like saying if a guy punched a baby in the face, no he's not a bastard he's just acting like a bastard to that baby.

I feel so sorry for the poor individuals who believe everything they do is their fault if they get rejected by a women. That has to be the most pussy message I've ever heard a man say.

A true alpha male uses the same message for something much more important, like making a living to support himself, or going to war and protecting his men, or a man protecting his family, ect. Not because a women rejected him from sex stupid lol.

It being all your fault doesn't belong in the mating dance because it takes two to tango. Are you ready for this? The real reason PUA tells you it's always your fault is because they are trying to make you their bitch by capitalizing on your "failures" with women so you go back and buy their product and second reason is because they don't want you to think their tactics don't work, it's you that failed to make them work. It's a one, two, mind fuck punch that works on the gullible and the weak. No different that religion.

I took off the PUA chain around my neck and gave the community the big middle finger and started doing things my way and got laid, end of story, case closed.

Anonymous said...

PUA is like a soap opera(NOVELA)they sell you there programs by chapters,in other words they do not give ALL THE INFO in one program so in order for you to keep buying there programs like david dangelo they will tell half of there info,some info works but if you work out at the Gym loose weight you will have more confidence with women,there this guy with an english accent that teach you that if walk in a certain way you will get more women and that one soccer team in england has contract his services and teach them to walk like agent 007 God i can belive they sale this stuff,and they sound very convincible i bought david dangelo his body language program and i think there is more info on google about body language than in his video.

Anonymous said...

Well, you know. You said somewhere one thing that made me think. You said that men should not Accept womens Crappy behaviour. Then, I thought. What are they then supposed to do? Change women? I get the sensation that you, John, have been traumatized somewhere along the way and could just not accept that the girl had flaws and crappy behaviour.

Thing is, people actually can be crappy. And just because you accept it doesnt mean that you have to tolerate it. I think, that the PUA scene seems to advokate just this thing. You dont have to tolerate it and there are several ways of how to show that you do not tolerate a certain behaviour. One of which you can do that is a so called "neg" where you tell her upfront about her shitty behaviour, but you dont care about it. You are just being plain honest, upfront and so on. Then encourage the positive behaviour if you want or if the moment is right for that what do I know.

So I would not agree with your statement about that men should not Accept womens crappy behaviours. That just seems psycho for you to say.

John said...

"So I would not agree with your statement about that men should not Accept womens crappy behaviours. That just seems psycho for you to say."

That's one of the most trollish comments I've ever had on this blog. Congratulations!

Anonymous said...

Google up David DeAngelo's (aka Eben Pagan, his birth name) wife, and tell me that you think PUA works.

Nevermind that he admitted DURING HIS WEDDING CEREMONY that he's only had 2 "serious" relationships in his whole life.

Do the same for Mystery's baby mama. Ypu'll be amazed.

Anonymous said...

Another bullshit community bashing post.I'm not advocating scammery,but when dudes like you try to come up with bullshit dissing the community's concepts,I say fuck you.You might as well align yourself with PUAHate lmao.

John said...

Your motivation for disagreeing becomes obvious upon following your link.

Anonymous said...

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. It is extremely well written, in my opinion. I typically don't like reading posts that are too long, but your writing was flowing so well.

I would like to put in my 2 cents as a woman who goes out some, is good-looking and who has been popular throughout my life.

1. American women are very rude. I see a lot of behavior that I would call "no manners". There is no reason to be rude with anybody, even if you do not like the guy. Most men in clubs in the US are civil enough and polite, so there is no reason to be rude back.
During the course of my life I never ever had to put a guy down, brush him off or be bitchy, especially if I sensed he liked me or approached me to talk. Even when I do not like him at all, I would be even extra careful not to hurt his feelings.

2. We do not like everybody that we meet. It has nothing to do with your/my/his/her value as a person. Some people do not like me. And I do not like some people. For dating that is. John is right on saying that there is no reason to start looking for faults in yourself because somebody does not like you. If you do, you will need to go see a shrink. You will drive yourself crazy.
Throughout my life I have rejected men that were well above average in looks and income. They were boring. Looks and money is not everything. It matters up to a point. All of the stuff that people write out there about build, height, display of social value is partially true, but not in absolute values. If a man is interesting for me, I do not care what his height is or how much money he has. I will talk, spend time with him. When a man and a woman spend time together and find each other interesting, chances of further development of relationship rise dramatically.

3. 100% agree on the statement that if you do not approach other people and are not sociable, you will never meet anybody to spend time with to take it further.

4. I have briefly acquainted myself with PUA methods and watched some videos. 99% of PUAs are disgusting. Not matter what they do, I won't spend any time with them. 1% are interesting.
Their pick up techniques might work for stupid women of all ages. If you have half a brain, you will find their routines obvious and annoying.

5. From what I can tell, at clubs there is always a number of women who will willingly sleep with just about anybody. You do not have to have any techniques whatsoever. You just have to be there and they will sleep with you.

Anonymous said...

6. If you are looking for a woman to have a relationship with (date), PUA will bring you to bitter disappointment. Even if we assume that you will succeed in attracting somebody, you will have no means to sustain a relaxing and satisfying relationship for yourself. You will have to be constantly gaming.

7. It is okay to be insecure. All of us are at some point. It is okay to be afraid to initiate contact. It is normal. Women are not stupid and understand that. A normal woman is not going to make it hard on you. There are no shit tests. Women would like to meet somebody just like men do. If a woman likes you, she will help you. This is what John was talking about when he said that it is a mutual relationship, it is a dance, not corpse dragging.:)

8. You won't like 99% of people you meet, be that men or women. Even if you are looking for a friend (non-romantic, just friend) of the same gender as you are, most of the people that you go through won't be your friends. I know it from the experience of finding friends in a foreign country. The same, probably, applies to meeting romantic partners. The tip here - do not give up, keep trying. John nicely covered this in numbers and statistical probabilities.

9. Your chances of meeting somebody for dating is higher through established social networks of friends, family, and work. Common interest clubs (hiking, reading, biking, etc. even forums, like programming and such) work well too. Random meetings in clubs and bars happen, but the probability of success there is not that high. It does not mean it does not work, it just means do not put all of your eggs in one basket.

10. If you have a friend who is sociable, learn from him. Watch what he does and copy. It is free. Spending 1500-3000 bucks on PUA training is stupid. Better spend this money on a vacation to Europe.

11. Read scientific literature on biohistory as well as social and evolutionary history to weed out the junk about "natural" and biological. Most of the statements about natural and biological do not stand up to observational scrutiny. Throw in some anthropological literature.

Thanks again for provoking reading!

Layla

Lono said...

PUA is not all encompassing . . . but it has some very good points. For those without "skills", they will lead a life lacking in self confidence, doubt, and female rejection. That's just the way it is.

Layla wrote some very good advice though.

Lono

"What'll you do when you get lonely,
And nobody's waiting by your side?
You've been running, and hiding much too long.
You know it's just your foolish pride."

Anonymous said...

Great article.

Let me say first of all, PUA is utter rubbish that insecure men buy into in the hope of getting abit of nookie.
It does matter if you get on as a person, it does matter that your good looking.
The PUA community is based on "how to get drunk girls to do things they regret in the morning."
I spent years in the PUA world and it is utter crap.

Be yourself and youll be happy. (May I add only young girls go for this crap anyway) If your yourself, you'll enjoy meeting the right girls and not spend your life playing mind games (Well....thinking you are).

To all the PUA's out there, GET A LIFE !!!!

Anonymous said...

Your writings on this topic are much appreciated because you articulate many of the thoughts and feelings I have about PUA.

I became aware of PUA in 2006 and did some reading and dabbled with it. I went so far as to take the Mystery Method bootcamp in New York in June of 2006. At the time, I didn't have bad luck with women and I had had several serious relationships. My track record was pretty normal. But the theories and claims I read about in The Game, in Mystery's ebook, and on the forums were so convincing that I decided there were things that I could improve on in terms of relating to women.
I put aside my misgivings in an attempt to be open minded and push myself out of my comfort zone.

Even though the claims and theories seemed to make sense, my intuition told me something was off about it at the boot camp. I am the type of person who learns by example, not talk. If someone gives me advice, I look at the source of the advice and weigh the validity of the advice accordingly.

What turned me off to PUA was meeting the actual master PUAs in person. They creeped me out. They were not the kind of people I wanted to become like. Not the kind of people I'd introduce female friends to. Not the kind of people I'd want as friends.

At my boot camp, the lead instructors were Lovedrop and Matador, with short appearances by Mystery. Lovedrop was easily one of the creepiest people I've ever met. He was extremely intelligent but also sociopathic and disturbing. He wore dark sunglasses during the entire classroom portion of the boot camp. He had an undisguised contempt for his students and a grotesque arrogance.

During the "infield" portion of the boot camp I met another instructor named Hawaii. He was truly bizarre, like an indoctrinated cult member who has given up his true identity. He spoke of going out 5 nights a week and having made 7000-8000 approaches. He estimated Mystery has made 12000-15000 approaches. After meeting these PUAs I decided that even if the concepts work, it isn't worth it to become a creepy sociopath whose persona has been molded into something completely warped and unnatural.

Since then, I've concluded that my short experiment with PUA poisoned my thinking for a time, much like a computer virus. I regret ever hearing about that strange world.

Anonymous said...

Other fallacies in my opinion:

1. Women never approach or seduce. Also women never make the first call.

I've seen it way too many times how horny women are sexually aggressive over some "hot"/"cute"/etc guys and they end up taking them home.

If you think this isn't true, then you are "unexperienced", i.e. haven't been out 7 nights a week for a long time.

I was subscribed to the PUA idea for over 7 years, going 6-7 nights a week.

Did I get laid quite a few times? Yes (numbers game).

Were the girls what I really liked? 95% of the time NO, hell NO.

Do I regret it ever going the PUA route? Yes. A 100 times. Most of the best girls I got was when I was on vacation travelling with friends and it happened naturally.

Talking about a demanding psycho life style. I'm broke and I now have a drinking problem. Plus the psychological consequences are dire.

2. You have to be masculine ("macho") aggressive type in order to be successful with women.

Don't even get me started on this bull!

If you have a good style, are in good shape (good genetics also help in terms of facial features and height), you can be the softest, timidest guy in the world and you WILL get laid a lot (unless you are too psycho) IF you want to. Of course, you could just date nice girls without ever becoming a "guuuru" or a "player".

You don't believe me? Read topic 1. again about my "experience".

Spare yourself, fellas.

Broke-alcoholic-sociopathic-never-to-be-a-PUA-again

Anonymous said...

Layla,

You are very sweet. You are a little geeky but I find that sweet... I bet you like to cuddle;)

PUAS would say that you are probably a troll/guy because "a woman cannot consciously decipher men-to-women dynamics"....

LOLOLOLOLOL

<3 to Layla

Ray Gordon said...

The much larger scam against men is run by WOMEN, who tell men that "right woman" will show up if they just "be themselves" and play this rigged game.

PUA tactics originally began as a countermeasure to this lie, designed for a small audience of highly motivated men. Since the men were motivated, independent thinkers who didn't wait for the media to tell them to pay attention to what they had been ignoring for years, and since the women and most other men ignored the tactics as well, they never became overplayed, and worked for msot men.

It is very noteworthy that you rely on media representations of this movement rather than its true origins. When The Game dropped, Neil Strauss jmped the community over the shark by attempting tyo to portray PUAs as regular guys, when the regular guys were the ones reacting to the media. They were a big customer base so the community and its internet marketers diluted the message to capitalize.

Obviously you'll never have 100 percent of men getting the 5-10 percent of hot women out there. This was not an issue in 1998, but once it became one over the last severla years, we're back to 199 again, with the advantage shifting back to the women. This has left a large number of men out in the cold, realizing that the hottie-in-every-bed dream is impossible.

Since beautiful women will always sleep with some guy, those guys have knowledge of value to the masses of men. Just because *these* specific tactics no longer work, that doens't mean others won't, but there's a much larger issue at work here.

You could write a great book on how to become heavyweight boxing champion, with great advice, yet 99 percent of the readers, by definition, would have to fail. Same for PUA. As any PUA tactic mainstreams, it will continue to work only for the desirable men who don't need it.

What most men need to hear is that they have no real chance with these women, and would be better off not even trying the PUA approach, since those risks are justified only when there is a sexual payoff, which does not exist for the "losers" most likely to attempt the methods.

Before you blame the PUAs, however, it is the *women* who want "losers" to stay in the game, so they can be strung along with false hope, for the specific purpose of exploiting their money, time, attention, and resources. If women were just honest with jmen, the PUA industry would never have come into existence, just like if employers were honest with workers, we wouldn't need job-interview coaches.

Men who attack PUAs and their gurus without recognizing women as the true source of any "scam" would appear to be pussy-whipped and merely attacking men in order to score points with women.

Ray Gordon

John said...

^^^^ First of all, I removed your links to your pick-up products. There's no place for that here.

I do place plenty of blame at the feet of women, although that is talked about more on my other blog tomenunite.blogspot.com

And I place blame at the feet of certain men (on this blog) for being little more than an enhanced version of a white knight. Women of course will often exploit the inherent tendency (weakness) in many men to cater to women. But being held under someone else's thumb in this case comes down to male weakness not female strength.

I was tempted not to post your comment because you're obviously promoting a product and people that promote products are often biased against those things they attack.

Anonymous said...

Interesting article; of course you're going to get haters. Ever been on the PUA Forums? It's like a cult - circlejerking and little cliquey abbreviations, pretty pathetic.

But to be fair, I think it works to an extent, since the underlying point of all this "PUA" stuff is that it gives men confidence. If they think they have all these "tricks" to attract women, then they'll naturally be more confident, speak to more women, and - working the law of averages - "pick up" more women.

Anonymous said...

Hi folks....it is very insightful to read both you pro n anti PUA guys opinions on this credibility factor of PUAs out there...

Anonymous said...

Okay, you wanna change girls?? Its not gonna happen. Pua stuff is good but you need to get ur head on straight. Practice is great! Guys fail at this because they dont go out and practice. They havs issues with their health wealth or lack of relationships that is hurting them. I can tell you that pua makes the difference.

Pua as its understood today is wrong. Dating coaches and being all natural is good in PR terms and an ideal but specific skills and routines are important. Even what mystery teaches is only half the story and confusing at best. He knows exactly what hes doing and hes IS the real deal. The thing is that nobody learned exactly what his secretS are. The funny thing is that they are hidden in plain sight. Hes laughing with the 10 s on his arms.

These other puas are carving out nitches with less then stellar understanding of seduction. So they can make lifestyles for themselves. However sinn, mehow and mysterys shit is good. So everyone do ur self a favor and get out there and practice. Stop reading this marketing bs Online and meet some women. Also while ur at it seek medical help for medical issues jn ur life. Im 29 and had i done this 10 ysars ago for constant tn nerve pain. Id be wayyyyyy better off . BUT PLEASE STOP BEING PISSED OFF AT PUA AND THE WORLD.. GET THE HELP U NEED wether its health or whatever. Mine was a hard case look up tn nerve pain on line to see what i mean i did t know and drs didnt either :(....

I tell you one thing though im gonna get mastery at social skilz and its gonna be through some hard work and pushing myself. If u wanna join me email me coolguy60018@yahoo.com.

John said...

"Okay, you wanna change girls?? Its not gonna happen"

*** That's right, so guys should change themselves instead. How about meeting girls halfway, oh wait, that won't happen either, so guys have to do all the work. Sorry dudes, that's just the way the world works. And yet here we are questioning and refuting things, which is also part of how the world works. I said it a million times, guys should do half the work, not because I or anyone else said so, but because it leads to much better women and healthier relationships. PUA techniques are not natural and that's proven with their very low success rate. PUA instructors with hot girls on their arms prove nothing to someone who has tried all the techniques and gotten no real benefit from them. The hot girls on gurus arms (if it's not just lies or paid escorts) are a result of something else, either having the right social connections, or just plain numbers game which comes from approaching a lot. It could also be a result of having the playboy famous rich guy lifestyle, which many women are attracted to, and which can be afforded by expensive instructional sessions teaching guys snake oil PUA techniques for lots of money. It's basically an attribution error and a big scam to boot.

BettorOffSingle said...

You acn isolate *certain* PUA teachers as ineffective, but that's a far cry from attacking the concept of teaching as a whole.

Most anti-PUA types react to the media, whichy reveals a flaw in *their* thinking, since this information has been on the internet since the mid-1990s. Another manifestation of the flaw is to project what they see in the media to the internet and world at large.

The people who hog the microphone are not necessarily the most knowledgeable. Then again, if you're found a good straw man to attack, thbe last thing you'd want to find is a good teacher.

As for why PUA teaching doesn't work, it's becuase most men don't have what it takes to be PUAs. A karate instructor can be perfectly qualified to teach the most advanced belts among his studetns, but that won't make all of his students advanced.

Most men are stupid, selfish, clueless qabout women, yet feel entitled to the hottest chick in the room because they chose to believe some fairytale about "soulmates" or how theirs must somehow be gorgeous.

I could write the perfect book on how to be a PUA -- oh wait, I did that -- but it's not going to help a man whose flaws repel women. What I can do is help a man to maximize what nature gave him, and to alter his behavior so that women react more favorably. To expect more would be like demanding a pitching coach teach you how to pitch a perfect game; without a 95 mph fastball, your results will be limited.

Until you've taken the time to research every PUA on earth, and every method, AND you're somehow qualified to determine if the results are seconddary to the method or the PUA using them, you can't be certain that the "industry" you cite is a scam.

That you choose to fixate on the media is your problem, not that of a good teacher you choose to ignore.

RT said...

Excellent exposition of The PUA Scam. I only wish I had come across it prior to spending my hard-earned money on what is essentially useless information.
RT

Anonymous said...

Great article,

from what I have seen during my time in the PUA community is that PUA works only for guys who already have some advantage: like good looks, social status, lots of money, super self confidence and wit. Then all they need is basic social skills like small talk and to approach and talk to more girls.

after they get success they rationalize it as if they were pulling some game from their ass but in reality: the women were already into them because of what they had to offer.

If you are a regular guy (with an average or below average looks) and have nothing going for you- you will get shot down most of the time. Even if you managed to get one lay after getting 1000-2000 flakes is it really worth it?

I have met a lot of guys who got a few lays after approaching hundreds or sometimes: thousands of women.
They told me that their success rates or chances Now are not any better than when they first started out.

Reed Rothchild said...

Great editorial on what an absolute scam and fraud the PUA industry is.

What I hate about the PUAs is how they claim looks don't matter. I mean who are these PUAs trying to kid?

Looks do matter to women, and if you don't pass the looks test with a woman it's GAME OVER, and no amount of game or Mystery Method is going to change a woman's mind.

Anonymous said...

What men have to realize about the PUA community is that it actually serves to break down your own sense of self-esteem and self-worth all in order to separate you from your money. It says you are not good enough so you need to buy PUA products to make you better. Those products tell you, you still aren't good enough until you attend live seminars. The live seminars tell you, you still aren't good enough until you have live consultations. In the live consultations they manipulate you into believing you need them in order to "fix" your problem. Oh yeah, these services are progressively more and more expensive. This will continue until you wise up, grow up, be a real man and tell them where to put their BS advice.

You know what "technique" works best? Being a real man with balls who doesn't base his self-worth on what others (man or woman) think of him.

Anonymous said...

I agree that the most effective way to be successful with women is to be a self-confident, assertive man who doesn't base his self worth on what other men and women think of him. It also helps a lot if a man has a strong sense of self, enjoys engaging in contact with women, is emotionally self-aware, and has some natural leadership ability.
I do agree that a lot of the PUA stuff is a ripoff and a scam. But with that said, some of the material DOES work incredibly well to pick up women. I know, because I purchased a 15$ seduction book about 10 years ago and began using it. I memorized a lot "romantic conversation" lines, etc. I began having a lot of sexual success with a lot of hotties-girls who were legitimate 8's and 9's, even higher. I could consistently walk into a bar, sit down next to a lone hottie, be french kissing her within 20 minutes, and be having sex with her within an hour. I learned how to practically put girls into a trance. Every first date lead to sex, etc. It was amazing. I'd had some success with women before, but never this quickly or consistently. The probem was that I wasn't being myself--I was using a gimmick--and evventually I quit doing it. If applied properly though, these techniques do work.

chris said...

where does it ever say this "There's this intense fear that if you call out women on their misbehaviour you are a chump or weak or unable to take it like a man."?
which ebook/material is this in?? if this had been made up, what does it say about the rest of this???

Anonymous said...

Yada yada and you can say that the techniques are engineered to get the highest quality women and they won't work on the lower value women (anyone over 25). It's PUA sleight of hand basically.

who said lower value women are over 25?
sounds like someones making up his own play on things.
maybe....just maybe....in a club most women are 18-25, not as many over 25. not as many women over 25 go clubbing. maybe...

Anonymous said...

I challenge you!

what if you had to rewrite this post with the positive side of pua

1) gives guys who are bad with women HOPE...a second chance.
2) gets guys to look at their life, start going to gym, dressing better.

3) gets them out the house, approaching women they dare not speak too before

4) gets guys being in the moment

5) gets guys Improving their LISTENING SKILLS. what women would like a better listener

6) teaches guys to improve social skills. leads into work, family, business, friends, relationships.

7) and many many more...

Anonymous said...

PUA teachers take advantage of the "citizen" just like every other trainer does in western civilization. They tell us what to think since 97% of the group doesn't know how to think for themselves. This works because the gurus are the white coat "authority" figures we have been trained to look to for guidance. They are exceptional at rhetoric but have no defense against logic, like most rhetoricians (motivational speakers, lawyers, politicians). As you can see not one AMOG expert has been able to "destroy" this article. And the author only seems well written to those that have no idea of grammar, logic, rhetoric, and fallacies. He is actually just using logic to seek truth, and rhetoricians have little power outside the spoken word and their use of manipulation tactics. They seek to win arguments not discover truth. The primary reason this works is because they train techniques to people who look to authority figures to teach them instead of learning for themselves. Like a music teacher you teaches a student who to play a song on a guitar and to learn another song you have to go back to the instructor. The funny thing is most of the famous "gurus" learned on there own instead of paying their way to enlightenment. No matter how many times you speak to Harvard, Yale, or MIT a theory not backed by math will never be taken seriously in the scientific community regardless of how amusing it is. And not one MPUA is in a social class to grant access to the mathematics needed to predict any of the PUA ideas. I have yet to see any predictable formulas supporting PUA ideas. Just because something works sometimes doesn't make it true. Everyone keeps saying PUA helps with the social conditioning of women, put the reality is the way we are grown to exist causes many of the symptoms PUA is designed to cope with on both sides. The only thing I disagree with is the constant referral to 50% effort by both the man and woman. I believe there just need to be acceptable effort from both sides. 50-50 creates an impossible constant. This can lead to feelings of exactness that realistically changes over time. Good article.

FreakyfishTacos said...

I agree that most guru's are trying to sell a product. Use of methods like fear or benefit are the only way to sell a product, even if the product is top notch, you still have ti market that way.

PUA standards vs Society standard is very mind blowing true. and interesting, yet hold these oblique beliefs are what cause people to excel and get better. I will say I have left dates thinking what could I have done better, rather than the girl was flawed. and I think this point begs the question do those values come from a place of progress or lack of self respect. Ex Rather than correcting or reprimanding the girl like a child you have to work around it.

Approaching is a skill or maybe a character trait that one develops. Let me ask you can you go up to any girl that you would like to talk to and just go for it. In society there are very few people that can go up and interrupt a stranger offering dick or anything else for that matter.

At best most guru's will say their success rate is 50 percent. If you look at the sheer volume, that more than anyone going about their regular day.

If you think PUA is pretty useless, i would say provide an alternative for a guy within a society structure that place him below average. What will you say to the short balding hairy guy with low self esteem, be confident? will that work when all of society reinforces his low value? short answer No.

I think PUA is a nerd innovation at its finest, I feel it will never provide scientific results because it is a psuedo science like psychology, If you cant hold that paradox in your head then it's prolly black and white for you,